US fortress in the Philippines 1941

[Delta Tank]

They may not get a pass, but I have never read where they were criticized either! Even the defective torpedoes could of done some damage even if they did not explode, and some would of exploded, just not all. I will admit the surface vessels were about worthless, but hey so were a lot of land formations that somehow did a lot of fighting. Defective equipment, and doctrine (air in particular) plagued the ground forces too, but they don't seem to get a pass for their problems. I think the US Navy could of done great damage, hell did they even try? I mean really try, not talked about it. How many submarines attacked? Number of torpedoes launched? Even bad torpedoes running through an anchorage would of maybe caused two ships to run into each other.
Mike

[Fatboy Coxy]

There are actually four 12 inch mortars in that battery, there is one to the left of the photo. Later built mortar batteries only had two guns due to crowding. Sometimes the four gun batteries only manned up two guns at a time to prevent crowding

Surely they didn't intend to fight with all four in the one location, thats just crazy. I can't even understand how maybe around 1910 that might have acceptable (if thats when they were installed), but by 1940 surely its obvious they need to be spread out. I can understand this type of weapon being difficult to shield from air attack, so thats even more reason to disperse! Please tell me this is a propaganda picture showing the power of the fortress, or something like that!

Steve

[Fatboy Coxy]

With regards to the USN, I don't think the list looks very impressive at all, given the amount of island coasts and sea lanes to patrol. The British Admiral Tom Phillips was hoping Admiral Hart would lend him four destroyers to help screen Force Z, but as has been said they weren't any better than the British ships, just a few more.

The real test to my mind is to compare the performance of the submarine force with that of the Dutch, who also had quite a number of Submarines, and gave a half decent show around the waters of Malaya and NEI. I am quite ignorant of the USN successes, only being aware of its torpedo deficiencies. Were these know before the fighting started?

Steve

[Delta Tank]

Fatboy Coxy,

As far as I know the deficiencies of the torpedoe was not known before the war. When it was discovered that the torpedoes were not hitting enemy ships that they were fired at and the skippers were complaining, the US Navy blamed the brave men that went to sea and did not question a weapon that was never tested! I have read both of Clay Blair's books on the "Silent Service" and the book by Admiral Lockwood entitled "Sink'em All" or something like that. I have also read the two volume set by Clay Blair on the German submarine force in World War II and they also had problems with their torpedoes, but the Germans did not blame the skippers or the crew, they immediately looked at the weapon, ie, the torpedo and fixed it! We screwed around for 18 or 20 months looking at men, because the Navy ordnance department could not possibly have made a mistake!!! When Lockwood discovered the problem by firing torpedoes through a fishing net in front of an island (can't miss an island) the problems were discovered, ran too deep, defective magnetic exploder, and a contact fuze/exploder that had a defective firing pin! (all from memory).

So we had 29 submarines in the Asiatic Fleet and they did? They could of done something other than consume rations!! The Navy gets a pass and the Army gets screwed!! What is new? For the record I spent over 20 years in the US Army and I am a retired officer just so everyone knows my bias! But, I am not bias in my humble opinion!!

Mike
PS The commander of submarines in Australia who was in Navy ordnance when this defective torpedoe was produced did not take the corrective actions to fix the torpedo like Admiral Lockwood did and his brave men continued to use this defective weapon for a longer period of time. This defective weapon system prolonged the war in my opinion.

[Hoist40]

There are actually four 12 inch mortars in that battery, there is one to the left of the photo. Later built mortar batteries only had two guns due to crowding. Sometimes the four gun batteries only manned up two guns at a time to prevent crowding

Surely they didn't intend to fight with all four in the one location, thats just crazy. I can't even understand how maybe around 1910 that might have acceptable (if thats when they were installed), but by 1940 surely its obvious they need to be spread out. I can understand this type of weapon being difficult to shield from air attack, so thats even more reason to disperse! Please tell me this is a propaganda picture showing the power of the fortress, or something like that!

Steve

Remember the US was prevented under the Washington Naval Treaty from changing the defenses of the Philippine fortresses for most of the 1920’s and 1930’s. By the time the treaty was no longer in effect the US had decided to give the Philippine independence and did not have much interest or money to change things. So the defenses were mostly based on pre-WW1 requirements.

From what I remember the mortars held up pretty well under bombardment with only one battery destroyed but that was because a shell managed to penetrate the magazine. They weren’t designed to resist heavy land based howitzers firing at high angle but ships guns firing at low angles

[Fatboy Coxy]

Thanks Hoist

From what I remember the mortars held up pretty well under bombardment with only one battery destroyed but that was because a shell managed to penetrate the magazine. They weren’t designed to resist heavy land based howitzers firing at high angle but ships guns firing at low angles

just a query, do you mean one battery, ie all two/four mortars, or one mortar

As far as I can make out these batteries were situated at
Fort Frank 8 x 12 inch How
Fort Hughes 4 x 12 inch How and
Fort Mills 12 x 12 inch How
along with other guns

Were they in action for very long, firing, or because of the intense bombardment, and their open pits, quickly subdued.

The Japanese landed on Corregidor and took the island in about 14 hours. The fighting was intense, with nearly 4,000 casualties between the Japanese and Americans, but despite the bravery displayed, was this a bit too quick to fall. The longer ranged defences seem impressive, but maybe the short range/beach defences weren't? I'd be interested to know what people think

Steve

[Takao]

The battery destroyed was Battery Geary, consisting of two mortar pits with 4 12-inch mortars per pit. All were destroyed when one of the ammunition magazines blew up from a direct hit.

A good start for the history is here: http://corregidor.org/
specifically here: http://corregidor.org/coast_artillery/CA_contents.html
Battery histories are located down towards the bottom third of the page.

[Peter H]

Photos from ebay,seller mmtt02.

Corregidor c1938

[Peter H]

Same source

[Peter H]

More...

Barracks

[Peter H]

Last...

[Delta Tank]

To all,
Peter H. great pictures, I really enjoyed looking at them. One thing struck me when viewing those photos, not one guy is wearing a helmet! When I was in the Field Artillery, we wore our helmets when firing the cannon, and our rifles, and our pistols, in fact anytime we left garrison we wore our helmets. I guess if something went wrong with those big guns and mortars, a helmet would not help much. Great photos!
Mike

[Fatboy Coxy]

I’ll second what Delta Tank says Peter, great pictures. And Delta’s comments about no helmets made me look more closely.

The photos don’t look to have been taken as part of a propaganda spin. Photo cor2.jpg has been taken just after cor1.jpg, but at a slightly different angle, and shows a number of personnel observing, possibly, the fall of shot. Is this an exercise on their capability, or rate of fire?, I can’t imagine these guns were fired very often.

Photos cor3.jpg, cor4.jpg, cor5.jpg highlight the hard manual work required firing these guns. Would the crew, working hard in the heat of the day wear full kit, other than for a posed photo. Surely stripped down to vests, no helmets, would seem more comfortable.

Photos cor6.jpg, cor7.jpg and cor8.jpg interest me in that a lot of the gun crew, on the point of the gun being fired, stand facing the other way, hands on hips. What’s that all about, bracing for the air pressure?. But then to confuse me more, cor11.jpg, a different gun firing, the crew face the gun, hands on thighs, hunched forward.

Steve

[Delta Tank]

I’ll second what Delta Tank says Peter, great pictures. And Delta’s comments about no helmets made me look more closely.

The photos don’t look to have been taken as part of a propaganda spin. Photo cor2.jpg has been taken just after cor1.jpg, but at a slightly different angle, and shows a number of personnel observing, possibly, the fall of shot. Is this an exercise on their capability, or rate of fire?, I can’t imagine these guns were fired very often.

Photos cor3.jpg, cor4.jpg, cor5.jpg highlight the hard manual work required firing these guns. Would the crew, working hard in the heat of the day wear full kit, other than for a posed photo. Surely stripped down to vests, no helmets, would seem more comfortable.

Photos cor6.jpg, cor7.jpg and cor8.jpg interest me in that a lot of the gun crew, on the point of the gun being fired, stand facing the other way, hands on hips. What’s that all about, bracing for the air pressure?. But then to confuse me more, cor11.jpg, a different gun firing, the crew face the gun, hands on thighs, hunched forward.

Steve

Without being there we can only guess. The guys with their hands on their thighs facing the gun, I kinda got the thought that they are about to be timed in some sort of competition, like loading and firing the gun. Don't know only guessing.

Mike

[phylo_roadking]

I kinda got the thought that they are about to be timed in some sort of competition, like loading and firing the gun.

Take a close look at the topmost of Peter's four "last" pics...to first of the two in the mortar pit...is that an officer over to the left consulting a stopwatch?

(Either that or he's sending a text message! )