Phillipines abandoned even before war began

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steverodgers801
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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#16

Post by steverodgers801 » 26 Nov 2014, 03:46

Mac was pulled out of the Philippines because allowing him to be killed or captured would be a major propaganda coup for the Japanese. It was astute of Roosevelt to keep Mac despite his flaws because he had his uses. First and foremost he was a darling of the republican party and Roosevelt felt it was better to keep an enemy close to where he could control him. He also did serve as a great morale booster, Americans could believe in Mac the hero even though the reality was not quite true. The CNOH was a travesty, but it served a political purpose of hiding the truth.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#17

Post by Takao » 26 Nov 2014, 04:11

I would think the capture of the Philippines would be the major propaganda coup...Capturing a general, now the sacrificial Wainwright, is just sauce for the goose.


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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#18

Post by Delta Tank » 26 Nov 2014, 04:36

"Mac was pulled out of the Philippines because allowing him to be killed or captured would be a major propaganda coup for the Japanese. It was astute of Roosevelt to keep Mac despite his flaws because he had his uses. First and foremost he was a darling of the republican party and Roosevelt felt it was better to keep an enemy close to where he could control him. He also did serve as a great morale booster, Americans could believe in Mac the hero even though the reality was not quite true. The CNOH was a travesty, but it served a political purpose of hiding the truth."
Typical crap from an irrational "MacArthur Hater" who don't know "Shit From Shinola"!!

Mike

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#19

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 26 Nov 2014, 08:10

Takao wrote:
Odd that you state that FDR "astutely" saw a method, in 1941, to avoid a potential republican presidential opponent...If so, it was not very "astute" of FDR to pull his butt out of the Philippines. It was also not very "astute" to "give" MacArthur the CMOH for losing his command. Further, It was not very "astute" of FDR not to court martial MacArthur for losing his command. It was not very "astute" of FDR to allow MacArthur to be placed in another prominent position. Finally, if MacArthur wanted to run for President, he could simply resign his command. All in all, if FDR wanted to "get rid" of a political opponent, he went about it in a a quite idiotic way by building said General into a great American hero..
FDR understood the only way to keep that dog distracted was to give him "glory". Macarthur lived on it.
MacArthur was only a "figurehead"? Most of the literature I have read points to quite the contrary.

The earliest "write off" goes back to the early years of the creation of War Plan Orange which foresaw that the Philippines would likely be lost.
As leader of US forces in PI , he was. As the US was never going to station large number of troops there, given the potential of PI being lost. But the is a-lot of other stuff going on in 1940-1941 too, and US war-plans were definitely in a state of flux. As of mid-late 1941, a new plan arose to hold PI and use as a B-17 bomber base to cower Japan. Japan didn't wait that long of course.

"As to Macarthur being evacuated and PI being "written off/abandoned" then", I think a good case might be made for that date. "Why" in that case is more important, and would be something I would have to look more into, or will, if I ever get around to looking at the intel war again.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#20

Post by South » 26 Nov 2014, 09:49

Good morning Takao and Fred (Fred: I'm referencing in re "US leadership completely lost its head."),

It was indeed "astute" - or more accurately - as to what was decided at the private meetings, as to the best plan on how to handle Douglas MacArthur. These same "no notes allowed" meetings successfully handled the isolation of J. Edgar Hoover of the F.B.I and General Harold Short of Territory of Hawaii. One political worry was already off the list: Governor Huey Long of Louisiana, one of the few potential challengers to a FDR reelection victory.

Recall, also, that prior to Pearl Harbor and also during WWII, US agricultural interests sought the LOSS of the Commonwealth of the Phillippines in re any affiliation with the US. These ag interests did not want reduced tariff entry for lower-priced Filipino ag products because of the PI's insular status.

Awarding the CMOH is no less an astute tactic than isolating someone (J.Edgar Hoover away from Asia and the Pacific) or promoting someone (too many examples to think of a good one here).

Standard politics with the standard matters ineligible for public discussion were all at play. The father, General Arthur MacArthur, former military Governor of the PI, was removed from politics and later, the son, Douglas. FDR & Co. knew what they were doing and it wasn't until the ETO General, Dwight Eisenhower, that the FDR political component experienced a major loss.

Happy Thanksgiving Takeo, Fred and other observers of holiday !


Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#21

Post by rcocean » 27 Nov 2014, 04:11

Delta Tank wrote:
"Typical crap from an irrational "MacArthur Hater" who don't know "Shit From Shinola"!!

Mike
Not quite, he does know, since he turns every thread related to MacArthur into Shit. The historical facts have been explained to him over and over and over again, but it ignores the truth and posts hot air and MacArthur hating bullshit.

I guess MacArthur stole his fathers girlfriend or something. If this forum wants to be known as a credible historical resource and not just a bunch of BS artists posting "Beer and skittles" talk, his kind of comment doesn't achieve the objective.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#22

Post by OpanaPointer » 27 Nov 2014, 13:01

Dugout was a former US Army Chief of Staff. Allowing him to be captured was probably a bad idea based on that alone.
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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#23

Post by Delta Tank » 27 Nov 2014, 14:36

Douglas MacArthur was a theater commander in World War II. He exposed himself more than any other US theater commander to enemy fire. Can anyone name another US theater commander that exposed himself to enemy fire?

Mike

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#24

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 27 Nov 2014, 16:54

OpanaPointer wrote:Dugout was a former US Army Chief of Staff. Allowing him to be captured was probably a bad idea based on that alone.
His knowledge of the Magic code breaking was definitely a risk if he was captured. Also Purple machines being built from Enigma makes it even worse as the Germans could find out Enigma was compromised. Not sure how far along his Intel section was along with breaking IJN codes either, pre-war The PI OG team was further along in JN-25 than any other group, they continued to work until evacuated 18April41. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2063,d.cWc


All good reasons why he had to be evac'd from PI early war or simply not be captured alive.
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 27 Nov 2014, 17:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#25

Post by OpanaPointer » 27 Nov 2014, 17:03

Delta Tank wrote:Douglas MacArthur was a theater commander in World War II. He exposed himself more than any other US theater commander to enemy fire. Can anyone name another US theater commander that exposed himself to enemy fire?

Mike
And if there was no PR value, no Doug. This from the troops.
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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#26

Post by fredleander » 27 Nov 2014, 18:21

I think you're fogging up the issues here with all these FDR/MacArthur theories. There may have been a lot of political maneuvering before the war but I should think loosing the Philippines was a greater minus to Roosevelt than a plus to MacArthur if they had made it through the crisis. The answer to the thread title must be - NO! And MacArthur worked very hard to get his defense on its feet as soon as he got the authority. I doubt any other commander could have done as much as he did.

This is proved by the change of policy and the shipping of immense volumes of supplies and personnel even before the break-out of war. Only in December a hundred ships had left, or were planned to leave, for the Philippines. In this must also be taken the decision to integrate the Philippine armed forces with the US in the Summer of 1941 - the establishing of the USAFFE. With that came the potential of a 10-division army in addition to the US forces - within a few months. This was not decided by MacArthur but by the US leadership.

However, as with most other governments that misjudged the situation before the war - too little, too late - the US one was also very efficient later in clouding their mistakes - "it wasn't possible, it was of no use!" But they should not be chastised for not trying - with equipment, anyway. Their problem was they were shit-scared by their first defeats. They simply chickened out and seemed to forget the unanimous opinions of their analysts before the war - that the Japanese only had resources for one more large campaign in addition to their Chinese escapades. They were right! The Japanese were driving more campaigns but they didn't really have the resources for them. It was all based on what Norwegians call "Tordenskjold" tactics - the same men or units showing themselves in several places. A well-known military ruse. There are several examples of this. The Japanese were themselves worried about this.The result was that the supplies stopped short of the Philippines.

The US leaders lost their heads and they didn't listen to MacArthur pledges that the Philippines were not surrounded. The worst offender was the USN that, except for the submarine service, detached themselves completely from the Philippine struggle. They also "sabotaged" the transports from the US to the Far East in that they simply denied unescorted (army) transports to leave the West Coast or Pearl harbor. Later this ban was lifted after constant bickering by the army planners. Then much time had been lost.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#27

Post by RichTO90 » 27 Nov 2014, 21:17

fredleander wrote:I think you're fogging up the issues here with all these FDR/MacArthur theories. There may have been a lot of political maneuvering before the war but I should think loosing the Philippines was a greater minus to Roosevelt than a plus to MacArthur if they had made it through the crisis. The answer to the thread title must be - NO! And MacArthur worked very hard to get his defense on its feet as soon as he got the authority. I doubt any other commander could have done as much as he did.
Sorry, but I think you're blowing smoke as usual Fred. :P The initial decision to defend the Philippines was not made by Roosevelt, it was made by the War Department. However, indeed MacArthur did work hard...too bad he didn't work as hard developing a sensible defensive plan.
This is proved by the change of policy and the shipping of immense volumes of supplies and personnel even before the break-out of war. Only in December a hundred ships had left, or were planned to leave, for the Philippines. In this must also be taken the decision to integrate the Philippine armed forces with the US in the Summer of 1941 - the establishing of the USAFFE. With that came the potential of a 10-division army in addition to the US forces - within a few months. This was not decided by MacArthur but by the US leadership.
Four transports in September, another four in October, sixteen in November, and five in December are "immense"? Nor did "a hundred ships" leave in December. Five did. Another 30 of the 50 contracted by the War Department had there sailings cancelled, but that didn't mean they had left. Where did "a hundred" come from?
However, as with most other governments that misjudged the situation before the war - too little, too late - the US one was also very efficient later in clouding their mistakes - "it wasn't possible, it was of no use!"
What utter bollocks. The misjudgement was not covered up, it was rather well publicized. Eight Congressional investigations and Morton rather extensively covered the misjudgments.
The US leaders lost their heads and they didn't listen to MacArthur pledges that the Philippines were not surrounded. The worst offender was the USN that, except for the submarine service, detached themselves completely from the Philippine struggle. They also "sabotaged" the transports from the US to the Far East in that they simply denied unescorted (army) transports to leave the West Coast or Pearl harbor. Later this ban was lifted after constant bickering by the army planners. Then much time had been lost.
More bollocks. Evidence for the "sabotage" please. The cancellation of the 30 unescorted sailings from the West Coast on 7 December was rather sensible rather than sabotage.

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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#28

Post by fredleander » 28 Nov 2014, 02:39

RichTO90 wrote:Sorry, but I think you're blowing smoke as usual Fred.
And you are getting personal - as usual….:-)…why not just state your opinions – on the subject.
RichTO90 wrote:The initial decision to defend the Philippines was not made by Roosevelt, it was made by the War Department.
I am not talking about “initial” decisions - that went many years back, before Roosevelt – the second one, anyway. One item which shows that Roosevelt was keen on defending the Philippines was the result of the Arcadia conference - adjustment to earlier planning with the British freed up much transport to the Far East.
RichTO90 wrote:However, indeed MacArthur did work hard...too bad he didn't work as hard developing a sensible defensive plan.
There was nothing wrong with his defense plan. That was according to the War Department. What was missing was the follow-up from home. The original plan (withdrawing into Bataan) many like to refer to, which he did not follow, was changed with the new strategic mission given the Philippines with the increasing Japanese presence in South-East Asia. That, new, defense plan became official in November 1941. Its main prerequisite was that the whole of the Philippines should be defended. Fortunately, MacArthur had already started to implement it.
RichTO90 wrote:Nor did "a hundred ships" leave in December. Five did. Another 30 of the 50 contracted by the War Department had there sailings cancelled, but that didn't mean they had left. Where did "a hundred" come from?
I know, I wrote “left – or were planned to leave”. Some of these were also planned to leave after December, but they were planned in December. In that number are included additional transports planned after the outbreak of the war. Some already planned had sailed, some were delayed, some were cancelled - some were rerouted, most ended up in Hawaii, Australia, Samoa, Fijis and the Pacific islands - everywhere but in the Philippines. If you think about it, just three months after Corregidor surrendered the US started offensive operations in the Solomons. That was in spite of the delays. Imagine what this force could have done together with the forces in the Philippines. As an example, the Japanese did not have resources to invade Mindanao, end of April, until the fighting on Luzon and in Malaya was over. They had been there, in the Davao area, since December 20th but were not able to expand their presence due to the stubborn defense of the Filipino forces there. The same happened when they landed on the Zamboanga peninsula beginning of March. They were not able to move inland.
RichTO90 wrote:What utter bollocks. The misjudgement was not covered up, it was rather well publicized. Eight Congressional investigations and Morton rather extensively covered the misjudgments.
Strong words. How is it that you can blame MacArthur for not having “a sensible defense plan” then? Did the investigations show MacArthur to have been in the wrong in any way?
RichTO90 wrote:More bollocks. Evidence for the "sabotage" please. The cancellation of the 30 unescorted sailings from the West Coast on 7 December was rather sensible rather than sabotage.
Strong words again. That is an opinion which was shown by the OTL to be wrong. Losses by unescorted ships proved to be minimal. “Sabotage” can be read, and executed, in different ways. I did not mean that they blew up the Army transports, you know….:-). But the USN did absolutely nothing to get relief to the Philippines. Instead they squandered the time of their carriers on ineffectual forays around the Pacific.

Fred
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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#29

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 Nov 2014, 03:06

Could you ship all that hindsight to 1942, say January 1st?
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Re: Phillipines abandoned even before war began

#30

Post by RichTO90 » 28 Nov 2014, 05:01

fredleander wrote:And you are getting personal - as usual….:-)…why not just state your opinions – on the subject.
That is my opinion. You got personal and accused another poster of "fogging up" issues. Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
I am not talking about “initial” decisions - that went many years back, before Roosevelt – the second one, anyway. One item which shows that Roosevelt was keen on defending the Philippines was the result of the Arcadia conference - adjustment to earlier planning with the British freed up much transport to the Far East.
Nonsense. The decision until late July 1941 was to make a token defense, but the Philippines were essentially considered indefensible. Arcadia was post declaration of war, post Pearl Harbor, post attack on the Philippines. It can have, at the very best, only a marginal effect on decisions made before it occurred. :roll:
There was nothing wrong with his defense plan. That was according to the War Department. What was missing was the follow-up from home. The original plan (withdrawing into Bataan) many like to refer to, which he did not follow, was changed with the new strategic mission given the Philippines with the increasing Japanese presence in South-East Asia. That, new, defense plan became official in November 1941. Its main prerequisite was that the whole of the Philippines should be defended. Fortunately, MacArthur had already started to implement it.
Yes, planning to defend everywhere with inadequate resources was a great plan. :?
RichTO90 wrote:I know, I wrote “left – or were planned to leave”. Some of these were also planned to leave after December, but they were planned in December. In that number are included additional transports planned after the outbreak of the war.
More nonsense. By early December 55 vessels had been contracted for the resupply operations planned through January. Five sailed before the attack and put into Hawaii. Thirty others loaded or just sailing were cancelled. If you have some evidence for another 65 leaving then present it.
Strong words. How is it that you can blame MacArthur for not having “a sensible defense plan” then? Did the investigations show MacArthur to have been in the wrong in any way?
You claimed there was a cover-up. How can that be when all the evidence was there to see. MacArthur's plan was bad, but he was the original Teflon man.
Strong words again. That is an opinion which was shown by the OTL to be wrong. Losses by unescorted ships proved to be minimal. “Sabotage” can be read, and executed, in different ways. I did not mean that they blew up the Army transports, you know….:-). But the USN did absolutely nothing to get relief to the Philippines. Instead they squandered the time of their carriers on ineffectual forays around the Pacific.
More nonsense Fred. You claimed there was "sabotage". Please give some evidence for those "strong words". And while you're at it, some evidence of the prescience that revealed to planners then that the Japanese would be ineffective in prosecuting attacks against merchant shipping, when they had just demonstrated the raiding capability of a fast carrier task force, were known to have developed a strong force of cruiser and auxiliary commerce raiders, and were believed to have a strong submarine force.

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