Ross Rifle
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Ross Rifle
Hi all
I've been reading a list of British weapons captured by the Japanese at Singapore, following its fall in Feb 1942. Under the section of rifles it lists
Ross-Enfield (7.7.-mm) rifles, a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mnm) rifles, a considerable number
Because Malaya and Singapore were backwaters, units stationed there didn't always have the most modern equipment. I'm trying to identify which units would have been issued with the Ross rifle. I'd guess either or both the Indian units and the Australian units. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Reference Ross rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
Steve
I've been reading a list of British weapons captured by the Japanese at Singapore, following its fall in Feb 1942. Under the section of rifles it lists
Ross-Enfield (7.7.-mm) rifles, a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mnm) rifles, a considerable number
Because Malaya and Singapore were backwaters, units stationed there didn't always have the most modern equipment. I'm trying to identify which units would have been issued with the Ross rifle. I'd guess either or both the Indian units and the Australian units. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Reference Ross rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
Steve
Re: Ross Rifle
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Fatboy Coxy wrote:Hi all
I've been reading a list of British weapons captured by the Japanese at Singapore, following its fall in Feb 1942. Under the section of rifles it lists
Ross-Enfield (7.7.-mm) rifles, a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mnm) rifles, a considerable number
Because Malaya and Singapore were backwaters, units stationed there didn't always have the most modern equipment. I'm trying to identify which units would have been issued with the Ross rifle. I'd guess either or both the Indian units and the Australian units. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Reference Ross rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
Steve
teh ross,post was, AFAIR was used as a training- home guard rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
What is a'ross- enfield'??
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Re: Ross Rifle
They fire the same .303 round
Or rather...they do unless - until! - it jams
Or rather...they do unless - until! - it jams
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Re: Ross Rifle
As Waldzee says, Ross rifles were used by the Home Guard in the UK. Canadian and Indian/ISF bns were unlikely to have used them. Likely suspects would be the war-raised/expanded local forces. Dalforce would seem like obvious candidate. The Wikipedia article says - no ref provided - that they were mostly equipped with Lee-Enfields, but the quote from Frank Brewer's memoirs a bit further down the page mentions sporting guns being issued. Very 1940-Home-Guard then.
Edit: But my cunning theory would have trouble accounting for there being a "very great number" of such weapons captured as Dalforce were very short of rifles of any sort. Back to the drawing board ...
Edit: But my cunning theory would have trouble accounting for there being a "very great number" of such weapons captured as Dalforce were very short of rifles of any sort. Back to the drawing board ...
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Re: Ross Rifle
It appears only "small numbers" of Ross rifles were issued to the UK LDV/Home Guard in 1940 ("The Illustrated Book Of Guns", David Miller) because of the known jamming problems, and those that were were replaced as soon as alternatives were available; instead, a good part of the stock of Ross rifles "bought" from the Canadians in WWI to take them out of circulation were sold to the Irish Defence Forces during the war!
Strangely enough - they also experienced this strange jamming issue with their "new" rifles!
(Some sources out the Ross' problems down to the bolt stop bearing on one of the locking lugs, causing it to burr...but in fact this didn't cause jamming UNTIL the CEF in France ran out of their own Canadian-made .303! This had been made on a brand-new production line, as had the Ross rifles themselves...and once they HAD to start using British-made .303 the Canadians experienced a huge jump in the rate of jamming...British.303 was made on well-worn production lines to far looser tolerances - tolerances that could be accomodated by the "sloppy" SMLE breech In particular the cartridge "neck" dimensions could vary greatly...
And of course - WHO supplied the Irish with their .303 too??? )
Strangely enough - they also experienced this strange jamming issue with their "new" rifles!
(Some sources out the Ross' problems down to the bolt stop bearing on one of the locking lugs, causing it to burr...but in fact this didn't cause jamming UNTIL the CEF in France ran out of their own Canadian-made .303! This had been made on a brand-new production line, as had the Ross rifles themselves...and once they HAD to start using British-made .303 the Canadians experienced a huge jump in the rate of jamming...British.303 was made on well-worn production lines to far looser tolerances - tolerances that could be accomodated by the "sloppy" SMLE breech In particular the cartridge "neck" dimensions could vary greatly...
And of course - WHO supplied the Irish with their .303 too??? )
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Re: Ross Rifle
There's a mention of Ross Rifles in Prisoners on the Kwai: Memoirs of Dr Harold Churchill
http://books.google.ca/books?id=e65WPGR ... re&f=false
I've not been able to narrow down what unit Fred Hoskins was with yet but he wrote his own self-published memoir The Fall of Singapore the Thai Burma Railway that might have the info in it.
One more intriguing tidbit found from The Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser (1884-1942), 27 July 1920, Page 6
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Artic ... .2.14.aspx
There's quite an active subculture of Ross enthusiasts still so it might be worth asking at the Ross Rifle Forum:
http://rossrifle.com/forum/
http://books.google.ca/books?id=e65WPGR ... re&f=false
I've not been able to narrow down what unit Fred Hoskins was with yet but he wrote his own self-published memoir The Fall of Singapore the Thai Burma Railway that might have the info in it.
One more intriguing tidbit found from The Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser (1884-1942), 27 July 1920, Page 6
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Artic ... .2.14.aspx
Wonder were those "scrapped" Rosses ended up as I don't imagine they were shipped back home after being replaced with the Lee Enfield.The Ross Rifle, with which the Territorial infantry units on duty in India were armed, has been scrapped
There's quite an active subculture of Ross enthusiasts still so it might be worth asking at the Ross Rifle Forum:
http://rossrifle.com/forum/
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Re: Ross Rifle
Thanks OrwellOrwell1984 wrote: There's quite an active subculture of Ross enthusiasts still so it might be worth asking at the Ross Rifle Forum:
http://rossrifle.com/forum/
I had found it, tried to join the forum, but its currently disabled, have book marked and will try again in a few days
Steve
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Re: Ross Rifle
Apologies, I should have provided the link to the document
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 426/rec/18
A little bit more from that doc, Italics by me
Captured weapons will be used to strengthen the local units and defenses. Some of the better types, however, will be returned to Japan for research purposes in order to assist in improving the quality of our equipment. Surplus weapons (rifles, machine guns etc.) will be classified and stored, with their respective ammunition, by the local Army for future use. Weapons for which ammunition is not available will be disposed of in the most advantageous manner
While later on
Captured small arms
Rifles
Total no captured – 64,597
Total number of arms delivered to units – 14,113
Perfect condition – 26,578
Restorable – 3,573
Inferior – 5,199
Burned – 5,134
Small arms listed under the "inferior" column will be stripped of useful parts and the rest will be scrapped.
Adding these up we have a shortfall of exactly 10,000, I’d expect it’s a typo error, so one of the about numbers is probably 10,000 out.
Disposal of Small Arms
There are many types of small arms ammunition, and considerable time will be required for their classification and disposal. However, the local Army may use them as and when required.
The use of small arms for the purpose of strengthening the local Army is limited, and there still remains a great surplus of arms and ammunition. For instance, it is estimated that there are approximately 550 rounds for each 30,000 rifles available. It will be necessary to investigate the amount of ammunition available for each type of small aims. It is recommended that this ammunition be store for future use by a Army Special Unit (for instance, a native army) that may be organized.
I guess the obvious place to look is the INA (Indian National Army) under Bose, what rifles were they issued?
Steve
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 426/rec/18
A little bit more from that doc, Italics by me
Captured weapons will be used to strengthen the local units and defenses. Some of the better types, however, will be returned to Japan for research purposes in order to assist in improving the quality of our equipment. Surplus weapons (rifles, machine guns etc.) will be classified and stored, with their respective ammunition, by the local Army for future use. Weapons for which ammunition is not available will be disposed of in the most advantageous manner
While later on
Captured small arms
Rifles
Total no captured – 64,597
Total number of arms delivered to units – 14,113
Perfect condition – 26,578
Restorable – 3,573
Inferior – 5,199
Burned – 5,134
Small arms listed under the "inferior" column will be stripped of useful parts and the rest will be scrapped.
Adding these up we have a shortfall of exactly 10,000, I’d expect it’s a typo error, so one of the about numbers is probably 10,000 out.
Disposal of Small Arms
There are many types of small arms ammunition, and considerable time will be required for their classification and disposal. However, the local Army may use them as and when required.
The use of small arms for the purpose of strengthening the local Army is limited, and there still remains a great surplus of arms and ammunition. For instance, it is estimated that there are approximately 550 rounds for each 30,000 rifles available. It will be necessary to investigate the amount of ammunition available for each type of small aims. It is recommended that this ammunition be store for future use by a Army Special Unit (for instance, a native army) that may be organized.
I guess the obvious place to look is the INA (Indian National Army) under Bose, what rifles were they issued?
Steve
Re: Ross Rifle
This link will be worth 1000 words, allegedly: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 7.jpg.html Too poor a picture (and screen) for me to make anything out though.Fatboy Coxy wrote:I guess the obvious place to look is the INA (Indian National Army) under Bose, what rifles were they issued?
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Re: Ross Rifle
From the same doc I posted earlier, captured in Singapore
Rifles
Ross-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a considerable number
Later in the doc we have rifles captured in Java
Rifles (numerous in type)
Steyer rifles (6.5-mm) 13,850
Lee-Enfield type Remington rifles (7.62-mm) 11, 066
Johnson rifles (7.62-mmn) 4,885
It strikes me that the Japanese are loose with their descriptions, surely the Lee-Enfield type Remington must be the M1917 Enfield, build by Remington, among others. This is NOT a Lee-Enfield, obvious differences are only a 5 round magazine, 2 inches longer and a different bolt action. However if we were to think the designation “Ross-Enfield”, is not a “Ross”, it also can’t be a M1917 Enfield, so I’m unsure what else they (the Japanese) would conclude it was.
The other thought I had was of the number of rifles in perfect condition. Perhaps these had not yet been issued to troops. These could be newly made Enfield SMLE’s, but I’d suggest old stored rifles, still packaged. Perhaps these could be Ross rifles? I then thought as to how that could come about, and have two ideas.
1. The last convoy planned, as opposed to diverted, to arrive in Singapore from the UK was WS.11X, leaving the UK 30/31 Aug 1941 arriving in Singapore 6 Nov 1941. Enough time to arrive, be unloaded, but rifles not distributed to second line troops. Much earlier and Percival would have distributed them to the likes of the Sarawak Rangers. I think this idea is less likely, as they would have had time to be issued to the large number of troops rescued from the defeats in Johore, coming out with very little in the way of arms.
2. A stronger possibility could be they arrived in one of the emergency convoys sent from Bombay, BM10, BM11 and BM12. These brought the 44th Indian Bde, 3800 reinforcements for the Indian 9th and 11th Divisions along with the British 18th Division, minus the 53rd Bde. This would suggest they are ‘old stock’ held in India, sent to replaced lost weapons for the battered Indian Brigades
Of course this all presupposes that the Japanese interpretation of perfect condition is un-issued, and not just “in good working condition” as would be the case for rifles already issued to the troops. The devil is in the interpretation of the Japanese use of the English word.
Now I’ve run around in a complete circle, and nearly disappeared up my own …. I’ll think I’ll have a lay down!
Steve
Rifles
Ross-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a considerable number
Later in the doc we have rifles captured in Java
Rifles (numerous in type)
Steyer rifles (6.5-mm) 13,850
Lee-Enfield type Remington rifles (7.62-mm) 11, 066
Johnson rifles (7.62-mmn) 4,885
It strikes me that the Japanese are loose with their descriptions, surely the Lee-Enfield type Remington must be the M1917 Enfield, build by Remington, among others. This is NOT a Lee-Enfield, obvious differences are only a 5 round magazine, 2 inches longer and a different bolt action. However if we were to think the designation “Ross-Enfield”, is not a “Ross”, it also can’t be a M1917 Enfield, so I’m unsure what else they (the Japanese) would conclude it was.
The other thought I had was of the number of rifles in perfect condition. Perhaps these had not yet been issued to troops. These could be newly made Enfield SMLE’s, but I’d suggest old stored rifles, still packaged. Perhaps these could be Ross rifles? I then thought as to how that could come about, and have two ideas.
1. The last convoy planned, as opposed to diverted, to arrive in Singapore from the UK was WS.11X, leaving the UK 30/31 Aug 1941 arriving in Singapore 6 Nov 1941. Enough time to arrive, be unloaded, but rifles not distributed to second line troops. Much earlier and Percival would have distributed them to the likes of the Sarawak Rangers. I think this idea is less likely, as they would have had time to be issued to the large number of troops rescued from the defeats in Johore, coming out with very little in the way of arms.
2. A stronger possibility could be they arrived in one of the emergency convoys sent from Bombay, BM10, BM11 and BM12. These brought the 44th Indian Bde, 3800 reinforcements for the Indian 9th and 11th Divisions along with the British 18th Division, minus the 53rd Bde. This would suggest they are ‘old stock’ held in India, sent to replaced lost weapons for the battered Indian Brigades
Of course this all presupposes that the Japanese interpretation of perfect condition is un-issued, and not just “in good working condition” as would be the case for rifles already issued to the troops. The devil is in the interpretation of the Japanese use of the English word.
Now I’ve run around in a complete circle, and nearly disappeared up my own …. I’ll think I’ll have a lay down!
Steve
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Re: Ross Rifle
Who said that??? Did you not notice that a Ross would and did fire .303? same as the SMLE?It strikes me that the Japanese are loose with their descriptions, surely the Lee-Enfield type Remington must be the M1917 Enfield, build by Remington, among others. This is NOT a Lee-Enfield, obvious differences are only a 5 round magazine, 2 inches longer and a different bolt action. However if we were to think the designation “Ross-Enfield”, is not a “Ross”, it also can’t be a M1917 Enfield, so I’m unsure what else they (the Japanese) would conclude it was.
HOWEVER...
No, the M1917 or P17 or M17 was a .30-calibre rifle; the "Lee-Enfield type Remington" COULD be the P14, the .303in Pattern 1914, ALSO made by Eddystone, Winchester...and Remington In 1940, a lot of these had been issued to the Home Guard in the UK...but were taken back and sent abroad I've seen film of Commonwealth units in the Western Desert with P14s.surely the Lee-Enfield type Remington must be the M1917 Enfield, build by Remington, among others.
EXCEPT...don't forget the U.S. Army called the P17....the "Enfield 17" If these rifles were captured ON JAVA...it's likely they're American stock shipped to the Dutch? Don't forget the Dutch government in exile was buying arms, tanks and aircraft from the Americans....
The listed presence of "Johnson rifles" hints broadly at an American origin...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_rifle
...although THIS section brings up a strange query!!!
...inasmuch as the Japanese somehow managed to take possession of 4,885 non-existent rifles???Melvin Johnson campaigned heavily for the adoption of the Johnson rifle by the U.S. Army and other service branches. However, after limited testing, the U.S. Army rejected Johnson's rifle in favor of the M1 rifle developed by Springfield Armory.[2] The M1941 was ordered by the Netherlands for issue to the KNIL in the Dutch East Indies, but the Japanese invaded the islands before the rifles could be shipped from California. At this time, the U.S. Marine Corps found itself in need of a modern fast-firing infantry rifle, and acquired some rifles from the Dutch East Indies shipment for issue to its Paramarine battalions then preparing to deploy for action in the Pacific theatre. By all accounts, the M1941 performed acceptably in combat with the Marines in the early days of the Pacific fighting.
Looks like at least one shipment made it to the Dutch!
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Re: Ross Rifle
Hi Phylo, I think you missed a bit
The other thing I need to do is a bayonet estimate of Malaya Command. This might give me a better view on what number of rifles were already in issue. I would assume all British battalions would be Lee Enfield armed, as would the Australians. The earlier raised Indian battalions I would also expect to be so equipped, but the likes of the 44th and 45th Indian Brigades might be more questionable.
Anyone have a TO&E available for late 1941 British, Australian and Indian battalions?
Steve
The Dutch got the American rifles OK. The point I was making is all 303's appear to be "Enfield's" to the Japanese authors of the report. It made me question that they had correctly identified the "Ross" rifles. However if they aren't Ross's what are they? I agree they could also be P14's.Fatboy Coxy wrote:From the same doc I posted earlier, captured in Singapore
Rifles
Ross-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a considerable number
Later in the doc we have rifles captured in Java
Rifles (numerous in type)
Steyer rifles (6.5-mm) 13,850
Lee-Enfield type Remington rifles (7.62-mm) 11, 066
Johnson rifles (7.62-mmn) 4,885
The other thing I need to do is a bayonet estimate of Malaya Command. This might give me a better view on what number of rifles were already in issue. I would assume all British battalions would be Lee Enfield armed, as would the Australians. The earlier raised Indian battalions I would also expect to be so equipped, but the likes of the 44th and 45th Indian Brigades might be more questionable.
Anyone have a TO&E available for late 1941 British, Australian and Indian battalions?
Steve
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Re: Ross Rifle
Later in the doc we have rifles captured in Java
Rifles (numerous in type)
Steyer rifles (6.5-mm) 13,850
Lee-Enfield type Remington rifles (7.62-mm) 11, 066
Johnson rifles (7.62-mmn) 4,885
P14s...because if they came 2nd user from the U.S. Army they might have been Remingtons ok...but they'd have had "Enfield 17" stencilled on the side of the cases!!!The Dutch got the American rifles OK. The point I was making is all 303's appear to be "Enfield's" to the Japanese authors of the report. It made me question that they had correctly identified the "Ross" rifles. However if they aren't Ross's what are they? I agree they could also be P14's.
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- phylo_roadking
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Re: Ross Rifle
I see no issue at all with the Ross identification for Singapore...
...the kisser is the calibreFrom the same doc I posted earlier, captured in Singapore
Rifles
Ross-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a very great number
Lee-Enfield (7.7-mm) rifles a considerable number
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...
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Re: Ross Rifle
I thought the Ross was Canadian built from WW1. Withdrawn from service due to the mechanism jamming in the mud of the trenches. No stretch to consider they were preserved in reserve inter-war.
Canadian units were sent to Hong Kong. Also to Singapore?
Canadian units were sent to Hong Kong. Also to Singapore?