Most effective sniper of World War 2?

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Mikko H.
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Mikko H. » 05 May 2009 12:33

In that case we have to know when these claims were made for the first time. AFAIK, for example, there was no central sniper school in Berlin or elsewhere. I suggest you use the forum search function, there are a number of threads about König/Thorvald where this question is discussed.

I don't doubt for a moment that Zaitsev was an exceptionally able marksman and neither am I saying Zaitsev was lying. Probably there is a germ of truth that was embellished in telling. Memory can play tricks also to honest men. Or were his memoirs ghostwritten? Did he know German so he could read the documents recovered from the German's body?

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LWD
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby LWD » 05 May 2009 14:19

It is also possible that it was as story that was circulating at the time and he believed it. There are quite a few explanations for him being wrong (if wrong he was/is) without drawing the conclusion that he lied.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby bf109 emil » 05 May 2009 15:58

Mikko H wrote'
for example, there was no central sniper school in Berlin or elsewhere

are you sure as there are films showing this training from 1944.
Silent, motionless and deadly, German snipers lurked on the European battlefields of World War 2, hunting enemy sharpshooters, supporting assaults and laying diabolical traps on defense. Drawn from two German military training films made in 1944, this program provides fascinating views of tactics, weapons and camouflage techniques that are still viable today
here is a film made in 1944
Germany, 1944, B&W, 67 minutes, English commentary and subtitles.
http://ihffilm.com/379.html a book on German sniper rifles and scopes...i have not read this but IMHO these snipers would have to be trained and taught not just thrown into service, something a school would do in ww2Image sourcehttp://www.worldwartwobooks.com/product.php/6856/backbone-of-the-wehrmacht-volume-ii-sniper-variations-of-the-german-k98k-rifle
or go to you tube and see a 7 part German made training film on sniper training and schoolhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMapXX3ky40&feature=PlayList&p=9DDD38FD395F05D1&index=0&playnext=1

Vyacheslav
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Vyacheslav » 05 May 2009 16:40

Mikko H. wrote:In that case we have to know when these claims were made for the first time. AFAIK, for example, there was no central sniper school in Berlin or elsewhere. I suggest you use the forum search function, there are a number of threads about König/Thorvald where this question is discussed.

I don't doubt for a moment that Zaitsev was an exceptionally able marksman and neither am I saying Zaitsev was lying. Probably there is a germ of truth that was embellished in telling. Memory can play tricks also to honest men. Or were his memoirs ghostwritten? Did he know German so he could read the documents recovered from the German's body?
Yes Zaitsev knew some German--this is proven in his memoirs,Koenigs documents were given to intelligance officers who confirmed the docs. to be real.

Zaitsevs memory did not play tricks on him as he kept a battle diary in which his memoirs are the published version.

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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Vyacheslav » 05 May 2009 16:55

Zaitsev has an imprssive combat record and i doubt that a man of such authority would go on his whole life telling this story unless he knew for certain the German was the instructor at Berlins sniper school.
As for Koenig being a Soviet propaganda tool,it just sounds ridiculous to me-Of the Soviet war propaganda ive never seen one factual case of them creating ficticious characters.
They wouldnt just go up to Zaitsev and say were writing a fake story that you have killed a ficticious German sniper that was sent from Berlin to kill you. Soviet propaganda did not work that way. What they did do is publish real combat reports in the newspapers about outstanding snipers. Zaitsev even said there was a mutual trust between snipers and reporters-there was never lies or fake storys,only what was fact

Mikko H.
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Mikko H. » 05 May 2009 17:14

As I have said before, people interested in this topic should check the dicussions here on AHF and Feldgrau on this subject. And AFAIK Germans really didn't have a central sniper school (certainly not an SS one) but were trained in the units. Hopefully people will contradict me if I'm wrong.

FWIW in an earlier discussion (http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=11381) the following citation popped up:

Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance.


Vyacheslav, it seems we've reached a dead end in this discussion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Others will decide who they think is more on the right. But the fact remains that there is no concrete evidence that a man who can reasonably be identified as König/Thorvald existed.

Vyacheslav
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Vyacheslav » 05 May 2009 17:23

No problem,maybe someday it will be 100 percent proved or disproved.
sorry for ranting on

cheers

Mikko H.
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Mikko H. » 05 May 2009 19:32

Nah, it's nice to notice that people can disagree cordially on the internet :)

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bf109 emil
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby bf109 emil » 05 May 2009 19:58

Mikko H. wrote'
Germans really didn't have a central sniper school (certainly not an SS one) but were trained in the units. Hopefully people will contradict me if I'm wrong.
Germany reestablished it's own sniping school and set out to reclaim it's reputation of the First World War
from section below
according to this they did indeed have a school created after the losses to sniping at Stalingrad
One of the best known battles involving snipers, and also the battle that made the Germans reinstate their specialized sniper training, was the Battle of Stalingrad. Their defensive position inside a city filled with rubble made that Soviet snipers were able to inflict significant casualties on the German Landser. Because of the urban nature of fighting, snipers were very hard to spot and seriously dented the morale of the German attackers. Though German sharpshooters appeared spontaneously, often armed with captured scoped Mosin-Nagant rifles, Germany reestablished it's own sniping school and set out to reclaim it's reputation of the First World War. Germany drastically increased the number of snipers per unit. German training emphasized shooting at long-range targets to deliver a feeling of insecurity to the enemy, the ability to creep up on enemies and maintain hidden with enemies nearby, plus especially good camouflaging. Germany evolved the most efficient ways of camouflaging, both by using the environment (branches etc.) and by the development of specially designed, reversible camouflage clothing. German snipers were also issued with special shovels and knives to create the best possible hiding places and shelters.
source02-Jan-2008 version: Section "Snipers during the First and Second World Wars": info taken from: Zeitgeschichte - Spezialeinheiten im Zweiten Weltkrieg: Scharfschützen German Documentary (EAN: 4020974153959)http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Sniper#Second_World_War

Mikko H.
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Mikko H. » 06 May 2009 06:59

Thank you. The info seems to be copied from Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#European_Theatre, which, however, doesn't give its source. But I think it's not unreasonable to say that Germans took a new interest in sniping after Stalingrad, paying a backhanded tribute to Zaitsev and his 'disciples'.
Last edited by Mikko H. on 06 May 2009 08:48, edited 1 time in total.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby bf109 emil » 06 May 2009 08:41

Mikko H. wrote:Thank you. The info seems to be copied from Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#European_Theatre, which, however, doesn't give its source. But I think it's not unreasonable to say that Germans took a new interest in sniping after Stalingrad, paying a backhanded tribute to Zaitsev and his 'disciplines'.
No wikipedia sources info from others...here is source of a sniper school and DVD detailing information on itImagehere it can be purchasedhttp://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_ss_d?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=EAN%3A+4020974153959&x=0&y=0

Linoxilos
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Re: Most effective sniper of World War 2?

Postby Linoxilos » 11 May 2009 18:38

Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger, Knight's Cross
In english
Image

In greek
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My ID card says Tsioudakis George.


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