H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

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phylo_roadking
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#16

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Oct 2014, 19:38

Here is a Matilda example from the 1st May 1941:

Lieutenant Alexander McGinlay, ‘D’ Squadron, 7th Royal Tank Regiment
- “we had received a direct hit from an enemy 105 mm gun at very short range. The whole of the thick armour all along the side of the tank had sprung open, about three or four inches. That shows how tough these Matildas were. All we noticed was a kick on the leg from a 2-Pdr shell dislodged from its rack and a puff of wind.” (WO 169/1417)

This reads like sprenggranat rather than panzergranat or hohlraumgranat. If he experienced a "puff of wind" it sounds like the hull side armour had been opened and not just the armour over the running gear. However, I have no other evidence to hand.
Interesting for another reason. The Matilda was very thickly armoured - but not only slow to produce in the factory, the welding together of main hull castings often left huge gaps, bad overlaps and shot traps that had to be dressed off by the workers with grinders and handtools! To me that reads like a weak weld opening up, somewhere where top and side had been welded together but as the sections didn't quite line up the weld wasn't as strong as it could have been.
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ClintHardware
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#17

Post by ClintHardware » 16 Oct 2014, 22:55

That is interesting. Where did the weld and armour fit info come from?
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phylo_roadking
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#18

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Oct 2014, 23:44

I'll need to find my way back to a website with lots of detail about their manufacture I turned up several years ago when I was looking for information on other projects. The Matilda info was a bonus at the time; IIRC it meant not only all the extra work needed to "finish" the cast hulls and components, it also cost per vehicle in "man hours", obviously. But I pulled the other production figures I wanted and didn't keep the link :(

They're not the only "cast hull" tanks that had manufacturing problems; the S.35 Somua for example also had production problems with the fit of the top and bottom halves of the hull...but at least they bolted together!...and particularly the cast plate sections that were to fit over the suspension; these latter often had to be dressed to fit. And of course scope out some of the casting marks and poor finishes on T34s; this has been discussed quite often on here.
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#19

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Oct 2014, 08:18

Yes that has often been my problem too. I save whole pages of sites now knowing they will be useful in years to come.

During April-May 1941 I have found about four references to some form of H.E. shell that set AFVs on fire. I have wondered if this was Hohlraumgranaten or Effeto Pronto not fully forming a plasma jet. Urmel did mention in another topic that Gr.38 Hl (the first version that penetrated 45 mm) was not issued at this point. Oberst Kuhn's report of Panzer Brigade 3 in France 1940 includes an ammunition section but he makes no mention of using it that early in the war. Has anyone found similar accounts?
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Urmel
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#20

Post by Urmel » 19 Oct 2014, 10:34

I don't know if the Italians had Effetto Pronto for their 105s. The Germans did not allow their issue to guns in North Africa until at least January 1942 (order from Hitler himself, apparently), and I am not sure when they arrived in North Africa prior to that.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#21

Post by ClintHardware » 28 Oct 2014, 08:23

Hi Urmel

In one of the 1941 North Africa British War Diaries I have studied and photographed there is a reference to a translated German document that mentions the recall of a type of ammunition to keep it out of reach. It may be that whatever type it was referring to, was issued but then removed and stored. The British did not understand the German words they were translating in 1941. I have no proof it was Hohlraumgranate. I had wondered if it was squeeze bore ammunition for the 2.8 cm schwere Panzerbüchse 41.
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Re: H.E. Shells striking armour and their effect

#22

Post by Urmel » 28 Oct 2014, 09:38

Hi

That is referring to the HL rounds, the hollow charges. They hadn't been issued to guns at the time, so the recall only called them back from the forward dumps I believe.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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