Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troops

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countess
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Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troops

#1

Post by countess » 21 Oct 2014, 01:46

Hallo all,

Found this on FB; a Tiger tank bulked down in snow and mud. We all know Germans nearly took the Russian capital and Mosco.... Until winter hit.

I had enamours discussions on history forums, I discussing how the winter won the war for the allies; they were for the winter not inpacting any of the war.
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My grandfather, an engineer, repaired British tanks during WWII, that fought against the mighty Tiger and Panther tanks.

GregSingh
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#2

Post by GregSingh » 21 Oct 2014, 02:16

Hi, where is a Tiger tank? Wrong photo?
This one looks like summer or early autumn perhaps, but not winter.


steverodgers801
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#3

Post by steverodgers801 » 21 Oct 2014, 06:38

Countess, that is not a Tiger and they were not built until 1942. I believe it is of a PZ 3, possibly a PZ 2

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Harro
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#4

Post by Harro » 21 Oct 2014, 06:46

It's a Pz.Kpfw. 38t

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bronk7
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#5

Post by bronk7 » 21 Oct 2014, 13:52

of course, the winter weather will slow an army down, especially if they are not prepared..plus day hours are cut,

Graeme Sydney
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#6

Post by Graeme Sydney » 22 Oct 2014, 00:07

countess wrote:a Tiger tank bulked down in snow and mud.
It's not a Tiger, there's no snow and it ain't winter - hardly "proof" :P

countess wrote:We all know Germans nearly took the Russian capital and Mosco.... Until winter hit.
Taking Moscow or the Lenningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad line doesn't win the war. :roll:
countess wrote:I had enamours discussions on history forums, I discussing how the winter won the war for the allies; they were for the winter not inpacting any of the war.
Keep reading, keep discussing, keep learning. :milwink:

countess
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#7

Post by countess » 22 Oct 2014, 08:01

Hallo,

I believe the Germans would've taken Moscow / Stalingrad and SU (if no record breaking winter came along) resulting in war going on for another 3-5 years.... But Germany still would've lost; 34 million german soldiers against 500 million allied soldiers. The record breaking weather made the war closed to an end, much earlier than if the weather remaining the same tempt and stabilisation.
My grandfather, an engineer, repaired British tanks during WWII, that fought against the mighty Tiger and Panther tanks.

Graeme Sydney
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#8

Post by Graeme Sydney » 22 Oct 2014, 23:51

countess wrote:Hallo,

I believe the Germans would've taken Moscow / Stalingrad and SU (if no record breaking winter came along) resulting in war going on for another 3-5 years.... But Germany still would've lost; 34 million german soldiers against 500 million allied soldiers. The record breaking weather made the war closed to an end, much earlier than if the weather remaining the same tempt and stabilisation.

Op Barbarossa was strategic overreach and the Germans overachieved to reach the outskirts of Moscow. But they arrived exhausted and spent. Generals Winter and Mud had very little to do with that exhaustion and spent energy. The fighting retreat of the Russians from the Polish boarders did have a lot to do with that exhaustion and spent energy.

The Germans in front of Moscow didn't have the fuel, spares or reserves to go forward; it wasn't Generals Winter and Mud that stopped them.

And Generals Winter and Mud didn't stop the Russians from raising, training, moving and concentrating the opposing forces.

But even taking Moscow or the Lenningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad line doesn't win the war. And they are a long way short of the AA line that they set themselves.

Your beliefs are your beliefs but they are not supported by historical facts.

Germanicus Nero
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#9

Post by Germanicus Nero » 23 Oct 2014, 08:52

What an old chestnut!

The German Army had to have some excuse for their failures. This rumour was around their mess carts from January 1943.

If you can track down an internet poster called PHYLO ROADKING, he will give you the run-down on the weather conditions for late 1941. Lets just say that those on the WW2 Talk forum and WW2 forum from America would laugh themselves sick at this 'proof'.

Apologists for Nazi failings in russia have been churning away since the day it began. No amount of excuse-mongering will change the facts that the German Army just wasn't up to the task. Their Soviet enemy was, on a total war footing from the beginning, and further back into the thirties. Economially, politically, industrially, the Soviets were already prepared and waiting. They had a mass training programme that was not designed to make super soldiers out of each unit, but to put people in uniform with mimal training and get them operating at the sharp end as quickly as possible. Without this training regime, they would not have been able to recover from the severe beating their military recieved in 1941.
The Soviets were retooling all their factories to produce war material, something the Germans were doing only from sometime in 1943.

You cannot win a war of industry producing comfortable Tigers when your enemy is turning out over 2,000 units a month just in T-34s. Crude and uncomfortable, with only 4 men per crew, they were effective enough and available in numbers.

You should be asking why it is that the German military needed to come out with all these weather related excuses, obscuring the very fact that they just were not up to it.

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bronk7
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#10

Post by bronk7 » 23 Oct 2014, 13:51

Mud and Winter did not STOP them, but it is undeniable that they SLOW them down-very much

Germanicus Nero
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#11

Post by Germanicus Nero » 23 Oct 2014, 14:03

This is no proof at all.

The German army used the weather as an excuse to mask its own failure to perform.

Failure is it's own demonstration. Zukhov was caustic in his condemnation of post-war German generals and their excuses, citing the second mud period for 1941 as "shorter than usual". A jet stream weather pattern from northward also dumped snow into the region much sooner than normal, freezing the ground and enabling movement for far more of the year than the Soviets felt comfortable with.
Guderian complained that ammunition, food and fuel got priority, meaning that winter gear and equipment languished in Poland. Not enough of the soviet rail system had been converted to German guage to allow proper distribution of supplies, a failing that the German Army should have been aware of, should have been prepared for, but wasn't.

ljadw
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#12

Post by ljadw » 23 Oct 2014, 15:53

The winter slowed the Soviets,because,during the winter,the Soviets were attacking . :wink:

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BDV
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troop

#13

Post by BDV » 30 Oct 2014, 16:42

The 38(t) panzer had, AFAIK, track pressure lower or at most equal to the T34. The armament and the armor protection, were significantly inferior, though.

Raises the question of why nazi panzer "experten" thought OK to use on the Eastern Front a tank (Panzer III) with 50% higher track pressure than Czechs thought needed in Central Europe (LT vz. 38, more widely known under its subsequent "Panzerkampfwagen 38(t)" name).
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Yuri
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troops

#14

Post by Yuri » 15 Dec 2014, 10:56

countess wrote:Hallo all,

Found this on FB; a Tiger tank bulked down in snow and mud. We all know Germans nearly took the Russian capital and Mosco.... Until winter hit.

I had enamours discussions on history forums, I discussing how the winter won the war for the allies; they were for the winter not inpacting any of the war.
Judging by the crowns of the trees, it's not even autumn, and summer. Outfit soldiers also indicates the summer.
Generally speaking, according to long-term climate observations in the Moscow area the warm season ends in early August.
The most complete and reliable information about climate in Russia You can find in the all-Union SNiP (Stroitel'nye Normy i Pravila - construction norms and regulations - Building code) 2.01.01-82 "Building climatology and Geophysics" (Based on the results of observations from 1925 to 1975)
Current version of these SNiP this rulebook (svod pravil –SP) SP 131.13330.2012. "Building climatology" (entered into force from the date 01/01/2013)

ML59
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Re: Proof Russian Winter did halt the advancing German troops

#15

Post by ML59 » 17 Dec 2014, 23:52

Thank you Yuri, very useful information. Can you tell us if winter 1941-42 was really such abnormal with temperature much lower than seasonal average?

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