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Who was the most EVIL man of WWII (Hitler or Stalin?)

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.

Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 05 Dec 2003 08:50

ajk74 wrote:I am not expert on Soviet history, but how is that mistaken? What are the sources that explain Kirov's death? Please explain your statement that it is false beyond a mere negation.
It was proven on multiple occasiosn that Stalin had nothing to do with Kirov murder -in general the raticle is very badly written and recycles notions that were proven wrong a long time ago. this one being another example :
Other citizens who received no mercy were Soviet prisoners who survived internment by the Germans. During the war the Wehrmacht had captured about five million Soviet prisoners, of whom about 80 per cent died in captivity. The million or so survivors subsequently repatriated to the USSR, instead of being welcomed back at the war's end, were declared traitors to the socialist motherland.

On arrival, thousands were shot outright, whilst practically all the remainder were banished to slave labour camps where many more perished. As Professor Norman Davies has said: "It is a nice question whether these men, who had defied Hitler only to be killed by their own side, can properly be counted among the victims of the struggle against Fascism."

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Postby ajk74 on 05 Dec 2003 09:17

Where was it proven? I don't think that can be merely asserted and taken at face value. Amy Knight's book on the Kirov murder suggests the evidence points to Stalin and Volkogonov states that the murders of indirect witnesses of the Kirov murder is a hallmark of Stalin. "Knowing what we know about Stalin, it is certain he had a hand in it." The fact that Stalin personally took over the investigation

"NKVD complicity seems to be indicated by several factors. Besides the suspicious disappearances of witnesses one wonders why a possibly dangerous man was detained and released. There is also a question of how he might have even reached such a secure place as the corridor leading to the office of the Leningrad Party Secretary. One might also point to the actions of Comrade Stalin himself.
Stalin's actions prior and subsequent to the Kirov murder give much credence to rumors that he was intimately involved in the assassination. If he did not plan it, he certainly must have sanctioned it and was instrumental in covering up what actually happened.

The day before Kirov's murder Stalin decreed that those involved in crimes against the state could be summarily tried and punished by a special tribunal. He would use this decree in subsequent days to not only destroy witnesses but to destroy all political oposition.

When Stalin found out about the assassination, he took the extraordinary step of conducting the investigation, HIMSELF. This would be an unusual assumption of direct responsibility for the leader of a large nation. He took with him most of his lead advisors, including Yagoda, his chief of the NKVD, but he pointedly left out close friends of Kirov such as Sergo Orzhkondize, men who might be expected to be zealous to get to the truth of the affair.

Coupled with the suspicious circumstances surrounding Kirov's death, and the slipshod investigation subsequent, indications are that Stalin not only sanctioned Kirov's assassination, but that he planned to use it as a political noose that would allow him to gain and maintained a chokehold upon an entire nation... "

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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 05 Dec 2003 09:26

What cna I tell you -read less Amy Knight and more Yuriy Zhukov who actully uses primary sources to drive his point home.

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Postby ajk74 on 05 Dec 2003 09:27

Regarding Russian prisoners of war:
http://www.capitalcentury.com/1945.html

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Postby ajk74 on 05 Dec 2003 09:33

The quotes above were from a website, Volkogonod and Knight. What evidence is there that someone else was behind the murder? Zhukov supposedly got his information from NKVD files. Assuming this is true, if they were involved in the assassination, they cannot begin to be considered reliable evidence, unless the other ancillary evidence is also accounted for. Secret police files, especially when in the service of a dictator, are in no way ipso facto true accounts. Without specifics, we cannot credit them as such when there are other counterindicators.

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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 05 Dec 2003 09:40

ajk74 wrote:Regarding Russian prisoners of war:
http://www.capitalcentury.com/1945.html


There is a document which named results of checking and filtrations of repatriates as of March 1st 1946
Sent to the place of residence: Civilians - 2.146.126 (80,68 %) POWs 281.780 (18,31% )
Drafted into the army civ 141.962 (5,34 %) POws 659.190 (42,82%)
Sent to labor battalions civ 263.647 (9,91%) POWs 344.448 (22,37%)
Given to NKVD civ 46.740 (1,76%) POWs 226.127 (14,69%)


Really no reaosn to make somthing else up.

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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 05 Dec 2003 09:43

ajk74 wrote:The quotes above were from a website, Volkogonod and Knight. What evidence is there that someone else was behind the murder? Zhukov supposedly got his information from NKVD files. Assuming this is true, if they were involved in the assassination, they cannot begin to be considered reliable evidence, unless the other ancillary evidence is also accounted for. Secret police files, especially when in the service of a dictator, are in no way ipso facto true accounts. Without specifics, we cannot credit them as such when there are other counterindicators.
What evidence that it was Stalin -aside from mere Speculation by Knight? You assuming is very big assuming while the most simple nad unambiguous explonation is that Kirov was a play-boy, and the guy who killed him was extremley pissed at him. Btw any specific reason for doubting what Zhukov said?

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Postby Panther on 05 Dec 2003 13:46

My vote goes for Hitler. Maybe Stalin would have become something similar, but he did not concentrate against a RACE! And the is the main factor! A race is innocent! Always! Races can't be judged, only people... Just because of one mistake by someone, (Or worse just because of the LOOKS) one can not judge that race! So Hitler witheout any doubts!

/Regards Panther

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Postby Benoit Douville on 06 Dec 2003 03:14

Panther,

Why are you saying that the Megalomaniac Stalin would have become similar to Hitler, Stalin already became similar to Hitler even before the war started with all the purges against his officers. Also, Stalin did concentrate against a lot of races, just look at his former country Georgia were he deported along with Beria his own people!

You want to know what Stalin said one time at a big conference with Churchill and Roosevelt. He said that 50 000 Germans, "The German General Staff" be shot out of hand when the War was over. I guess Churchill was right when he said that the real evil was still alive after the War was over in Europe...

Regards

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Postby Oleg Grigoryev on 06 Dec 2003 03:19

Benoit Douville wrote:Panther,

Why are you saying that the Megalomaniac Stalin would have become similar to Hitler, Stalin already became similar to Hitler even before the war started with all the purges against his officers. Also, Stalin did concentrate against a lot of races, just look at his former country Georgia were he deported along with Beria his own people!

You want to know what Stalin said one time at a big conference with Churchill and Roosevelt. He said that 50 000 Germans, "The German General Staff" be shot out of hand when the War was over. I guess Churchill was right when he said that the real evil was still alive after the War was over in Europe...

Regards
benoit aren't you get ever tired with that bogus equating of yours? While I don't know how deep your knowlage of German histrory it is rather obvious that your knowlage of Soviet one is sikn deep. Yet you presisting on making some cosmic "who was the most"

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Postby michael mills on 06 Dec 2003 10:31

I have to agree with Oleg in relation to the Kirov assassination in December 1934; the claims that it was organised by Stalin do not rest on any firm evidence, although historians like J Arch Getty do not dismiss absolutely the possibility that Stalin might have been involved.

So far as I know, the claim that Stalin had organised the assassination was first made by the exiled Trotsky, in the context of the ongoing propaganda campaign that he was waging from abroad against Stalin. Trotsky based his accusation on the claim that Kirov was a credible rival to Stalin, and that the majority of the Party Central Committee had voted for Kirov to replace Stalin; furthermore, that Kirov was very popular in Leningrad, was a more humane person than Stalin, and opposed many of the latter's excesses. Those claims were later taken up by Khrushchev in his de-Stalinisation campaign post-1956.

However, recent research into archival sources has shown that Kirov was not really a rival to Stalin at all, and that there had in fact been no vote to replace Stalin by Kirov. Furthermore, Kirov's rule over Leningrad was quite brutal, and he was a loyal servant of Stalin in carrying out repressive measures there. Thus, there is no reason why Stalin would have seen Kirov as a threat, or wanted him removed.

Of course, Stalin did later purge huge numbers of his loyal servants. But he did it by accusing them of treason and putting them on trial, not by having them secretly assassinated. So if Stalin had wanted to get rid of Kirov, he could have done it by having him arrested; assassination was not his normal modus operandi.

Stalin's actions immediately after the assassination are better explained in terms of Stalin's paranoid fears about plots and conspiracies, and his natural conclusion that the assassination of Kirov was part of a conspiracy that was ultimately aimed at killing him. Thus, from his own point of view, the mass arrests and executions of Leningrad NKVD officers and Party members was a defensive measure; since they had failed to protect Kirov from the assassin, then they might at worst be conspirators and at best could not be relied on to protect Stalin from conspiracy, real or imagined.

It is not necessary to interpret Stalin's actions in terms of his having guilty knowledge of the assassination, in fact the opposite; it came as a shock to him, played on his paranoid fears, and caused him to lash out at imaginary enemies.

Furthermore, the purge instituted by Stalin after the assassination was fully in the tradition of the normal Soviet response to traumatic events. Whenever there was a disaster, such as a train crash or a mine explosion, or even a failure to fulfil the plan through breakdowns of equipment, it was normal to assume that the events or failures were the work of malign forces called "wreckers", often described as agents of hostile foreign powers; the invariable response was to seek out the "wreckers", usually identified as the people in charge of whatever had gonme wrong, accuse them of being agents of the enemy, put them on trial, at which they nearly always confessed, and then execute the condemned in a sort of cleansing ritual. The whole process was reminiscent of medieval witch-hunts, in which disasters such as disease or crop-failure were blamed on agents of Satan.

Thus, when Stalin had the Leningrad NKVD purged, he was acting in the normal Soviet pattern; there had been a traumatic event caused by a disastrous failure of security, the local NKVD was responsible for security but had failed to enforce it, hence they were guilty of incomptence at best and conspiracy at worst, and deserved the most severe measure of punishment.

Finally, the records of the interrogation of the assassin show him to have been a deranged individual with a personal grudge against Kirov, whom he had been stalking for some time. The actual killing was adventitious; Kirov had gone to his office unexpectedly (which is why his bodyguard was not with him; the latter had not been informed of Kirov's movements), and had run into the assassin, who was just hanging about. The assassin then seized the opportunity to shoot Kirov with his pistol, which he possessed legally.

In the broad scheme of things, it is not certain whether the assassination of Kirov was the turning-point that it was claimed to be. In the immediate aftermath there was a large-scale purge of the Leningrad Party and NKVD, with many executions, but then things calmed down again in the course of 1935.

There may in fact be no connexion between the Kirov assassination and its aftermath, and the Great Terror which really began in 1937 with the sudden purging of the Red Army high command, and grew in intensity until its termination at the end of 1938. The Great Terror might have had quite separate causes, that have still not been fully explained.

Of course, Stalin did use the Kirov assassination during the Great Terror as a justification for his mass purging of the Party, in that his victims were accused of participating in a grand conspiracy that had Kirov as its first victim and was ultimately aimed at eliminating Stalin himself. But that was most probably a case of Stalin exploiting an event rather than his causing it.

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Postby Benoit Douville on 06 Dec 2003 17:15

Oleg,

I am not tired talking about what Stalin did because a lot of million people died because of him and we have to remember those victims. If you cannot realized the magnitude of his crimes, it is not my problem. This guys did nothing good for the Soviet Union. Maybe I hate him so much because I love the Slavs so much and it wasn't the right guy for them. The only thing I can regognized is that we won the Great Patriotic War against the Germans.

Regards

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Postby Nina van M. on 08 Dec 2003 01:59

They were both ruthless, cruel and OK, evil if you want... I can't see any sense or need to opt for either of them. Horrible things happened under their regimes and saying that one was better or worst than the other would be unfair to all the victims...

Regards, von K.

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Postby Panther on 08 Dec 2003 08:01

As always the better half of us spekas the truth... Von kluge is right on this issue. None of them was very kindly... Neither of them used means which was correct. And perhaps, they both were 'evil' as stated. But My opinion that mass concentrations aginst a race is wrong! Stalin did use hard means to controll and win the war. None was allowed to stand in his way. He got rid of them one way or another. But that was depended on his political stance, insanity and brutality. Hitler on the otherhand did do the same, based on pure stupidity and cruelty. I know I'm not right to judge. But this at least is my opinion... No offens to anyone...

/Regards Panther[/i]

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Postby alf on 08 Dec 2003 12:47

I agree with Von Kluge
They were both ruthless, cruel and OK, evil if you want... I can't see any sense or need to opt for either of them. Horrible things happened under their regimes and saying that one was better or worst than the other would be unfair to all the victims
...


Professer Trevor-Roper the English WW2 Historian wrote an asute insight way back in the 1960's.

"It is sometimes supposed that Hitler and Stalin are fundamentally opposite portents, the one a dictator of the extreme right, the other of the extreme left. This is not so. Both in fact, though in different ways, aimed at similar power, based on similar classes and maintained by similar methods. And if they fought and abused each it was not as incompatible political antipodes but as closely matched competitors. They admired, studied, and envied each others methods: their common hatred was directed against the liberal 19th century Western Civilisation which both openly wished to destroy. No clearer illustration of this truth can be found than in their joint attitude to Poland from 1939-1944"


That quote is from Alan Clark's book Barbarossa.

To try and argue who was worst misses the point entirely, they were both abominations on humanity.

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