or doesn't want to give some info about them 
Please help with any info of Kurchevsky's recoilless guns, mounted on tankettes and trucks in 1930s. Did they used during the first period of WWII?
BIGpanzer
*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*
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Michael Emrys
- Member
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 19:44
- Location: USA
Speaking for myself, this is the first I've heard of them, though admittedly I'm not a big East Front grog. I've been interested in the information you've turned up so far and wish you every luck in your quest. Are you preparing a book, BTW?BIGpanzer wrote:Seems to be that nobody knows about those Soviet experimental SP guns
Please help with any info of Kurchevsky's recoilless guns, mounted on tankettes and trucks in 1930s. Did they used during the first period of WWII?
Hello, Grease_Spot!
Thank you for the kind letter!
As for the book, I never thought about it 
, I just want to make clear some questions for myself and, probably, for the some forum members. Unfortunately, there are few sources about experimental models of tanks and SP guns of the Allies. As for American and British AFVs - it is possible to find something, of course (but the info is much more less than about German AFVs anyway ). As for the Soviet tanks and SP guns (I mean experimental models) - almost nothing, or some info in Russian books, which are hard to find and then to translate.
As for Kurchevsky’s recoilless guns – I know a few information about them. That is why I posted my question here, because I would like to know more detailed information.
But what I found (this is all info I know ) – engineer L. Kurchevsky (1891-1937) worked at a recoilless gun construction since 1923. And in 1930 the first Soviet recoilless gun DRP-4 with conical nozzle behind was made. Kurchevsky named such guns not recoilless (this is a post-WWII name for such guns), but dynamo-jet guns. Kurchevsky was a very talented engineer and had a big support from army command in 1930s, so he developed a huge amount of different recoilless (dynamo-jet) guns – 37mm AT gun with weight only 28 kg (!), different 76mm battalion and regimental guns/mortars (weight near 180 kg!). Some of those guns were produced in small amount and used in infantry and cavalry units till the end of 1930s.
Kurchevsky developed the first SP recoilless gun in 1930 (76mm recoilless gun, mounted on “Harley-Davidson” motorcycle!). Small series were produced and tested in the army.
76mm automatic (!) recoilless guns “K” were mounted in 1933-1935 also on tankettes T-27 and different trucks and cars (Ford-3A, “Moreland”, GAZ-AAA, GAZ-TK, six-wheel YaG-10 and others; the same design as post-WWII American 105-106mm recoilless guns, based on “Willis”) to increase their mobility. Some of Kurchevsky’s guns were placed also on vessels and heavy bombers (with 76mm recoilless guns!) as experiments.
Six-wheel truck GAZ-TK (1,5 t; 40 hp; 63 km/h) was produced in 1934 (several hundreds were built) as the special chassis for 76mm recoilless gun. For better cross-country ability the special steel chains (caterpillars) on the rear wheels were used. GAZ-TK had some problems with the brakes on the rear wheels (jamming is possible during the hillocks and trenches overcoming), so its production was stopped.
The disadvantages of those guns were low fire range and loud fire sound, also the reaction jet behind the gun. But these are the disadvantages of all recoilless guns as the “payment” for very low weight.
Engineer L.Kurchevsky was arrested and executed during the Stalin’s repressions in the end of 1930s, the serial production of his guns was stopped and almost all recoilless guns were removed from the army and destroyed. Kurchevsky even planned to replace all army, tank, aircraft and navy cannons and howitzers in Soviet Army by recoilless guns of his construction (he developed even 500mm super-heavy recoilless gun!) and this was, of course, quite strange idea. Anyway his very light AT guns could destroy almost all tanks of late1930s and could significantly make easier the defense of Soviet units against German tanks in 1941.
But some sources report that several reconnaissance battalions of tank divisions in Soviet Army still used 76mm recoilless guns (SU-4: 76mm recoilless gun, mounted on truck GAZ-AA) during the first months of the war in 1941.
Photo of the "Harley Davidson" motorcycle with 76,2mm recoilless gun (1930):
http://infvstanks.newmail.ru/grm/rus/rkkurm.jpg
Photo of the GAZ-TK truck with 76,2mm recoilless gun (1933):
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/g/33gaztk.jpg
Regards, BIGpanzer
Thank you for the kind letter!
As for the book, I never thought about it
, I just want to make clear some questions for myself and, probably, for the some forum members. Unfortunately, there are few sources about experimental models of tanks and SP guns of the Allies. As for American and British AFVs - it is possible to find something, of course (but the info is much more less than about German AFVs anyway ). As for the Soviet tanks and SP guns (I mean experimental models) - almost nothing, or some info in Russian books, which are hard to find and then to translate.As for Kurchevsky’s recoilless guns – I know a few information about them. That is why I posted my question here, because I would like to know more detailed information.
But what I found (this is all info I know
) – engineer L. Kurchevsky (1891-1937) worked at a recoilless gun construction since 1923. And in 1930 the first Soviet recoilless gun DRP-4 with conical nozzle behind was made. Kurchevsky named such guns not recoilless (this is a post-WWII name for such guns), but dynamo-jet guns. Kurchevsky was a very talented engineer and had a big support from army command in 1930s, so he developed a huge amount of different recoilless (dynamo-jet) guns – 37mm AT gun with weight only 28 kg (!), different 76mm battalion and regimental guns/mortars (weight near 180 kg!). Some of those guns were produced in small amount and used in infantry and cavalry units till the end of 1930s. Kurchevsky developed the first SP recoilless gun in 1930 (76mm recoilless gun, mounted on “Harley-Davidson” motorcycle!). Small series were produced and tested in the army.
76mm automatic (!) recoilless guns “K” were mounted in 1933-1935 also on tankettes T-27 and different trucks and cars (Ford-3A, “Moreland”, GAZ-AAA, GAZ-TK, six-wheel YaG-10 and others; the same design as post-WWII American 105-106mm recoilless guns, based on “Willis”) to increase their mobility. Some of Kurchevsky’s guns were placed also on vessels and heavy bombers (with 76mm recoilless guns!) as experiments.
Six-wheel truck GAZ-TK (1,5 t; 40 hp; 63 km/h) was produced in 1934 (several hundreds were built) as the special chassis for 76mm recoilless gun. For better cross-country ability the special steel chains (caterpillars) on the rear wheels were used. GAZ-TK had some problems with the brakes on the rear wheels (jamming is possible during the hillocks and trenches overcoming), so its production was stopped.
The disadvantages of those guns were low fire range and loud fire sound, also the reaction jet behind the gun. But these are the disadvantages of all recoilless guns as the “payment” for very low weight.
Engineer L.Kurchevsky was arrested and executed during the Stalin’s repressions in the end of 1930s, the serial production of his guns was stopped and almost all recoilless guns were removed from the army and destroyed. Kurchevsky even planned to replace all army, tank, aircraft and navy cannons and howitzers in Soviet Army by recoilless guns of his construction (he developed even 500mm super-heavy recoilless gun!) and this was, of course, quite strange idea. Anyway his very light AT guns could destroy almost all tanks of late1930s and could significantly make easier the defense of Soviet units against German tanks in 1941.
But some sources report that several reconnaissance battalions of tank divisions in Soviet Army still used 76mm recoilless guns (SU-4: 76mm recoilless gun, mounted on truck GAZ-AA) during the first months of the war in 1941.
Photo of the "Harley Davidson" motorcycle with 76,2mm recoilless gun (1930):
http://infvstanks.newmail.ru/grm/rus/rkkurm.jpg
Photo of the GAZ-TK truck with 76,2mm recoilless gun (1933):
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/g/33gaztk.jpg
Regards, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 10:16, edited 1 time in total.
British Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette as SP gun chassis
I mentioned some Soviet experimental SP guns, used T-27 tankette as the chassis.
Also I am interested in the photos of British Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette, armed with 47mm Vickers cannon (with 80 shells) as experimental British SP gun. I know its specifications: weight near 1,7 t; engine 22,5 hp; armor 6-8 mm; speed 45 km/h, but I couldn't find its photos and any additional info.
AFAIK there was also a British SP Stokes mortar, based also on Mark VI tankette - but again I have no info and photos or pictures of this model (probably, small series production).
Could anybody help me, please?
P.S. AFAIK four TKD tankettes (TKS tankette with 47mm gun wz.25 "Pocisk" instead of wz.25 MG) were built in Poland in 1932. TKS (and Soviet T-27 by the way) was a licensed copy of British Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette. I have no info about the using (if so) of TKD during WWII in 1939 also.
Photos of the Polish TKD tankette with 47mm cannon (1932):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/TKS-d-37mm.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/TKS-D.jpg
http://mtg.domek.org/polska/foto/tkd.jpg
Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer
Also I am interested in the photos of British Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette, armed with 47mm Vickers cannon (with 80 shells) as experimental British SP gun. I know its specifications: weight near 1,7 t; engine 22,5 hp; armor 6-8 mm; speed 45 km/h, but I couldn't find its photos and any additional info.
AFAIK there was also a British SP Stokes mortar, based also on Mark VI tankette - but again I have no info and photos or pictures of this model (probably, small series production).
Could anybody help me, please?
P.S. AFAIK four TKD tankettes (TKS tankette with 47mm gun wz.25 "Pocisk" instead of wz.25 MG) were built in Poland in 1932. TKS (and Soviet T-27 by the way) was a licensed copy of British Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette. I have no info about the using (if so) of TKD during WWII in 1939 also.
Photos of the Polish TKD tankette with 47mm cannon (1932):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/TKS-d-37mm.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/TKS-D.jpg
http://mtg.domek.org/polska/foto/tkd.jpg
Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 10:23, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the reply, dear Cicero!
Good and rear photo
, but, unfortunately this is a British Universal carrier with 2pdr AT gun AFAIK; not the Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette with infantry Vickers gun (experimental vehicle), I am looking for.
Those SP guns (with 2pdr AT gun, 25pdr howitzer, AA guns also) were built in 1940, using Universal Carriers as the chassis and were used (or at least were made and tested) by British Expeditionary Forces in France and by British Home Guard because of great shortage of real SP guns.
Photo of the Loyd Carrier with 25pdr howitzer (1940-1941):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... eGuard.jpg
Good and rear photo
, but, unfortunately this is a British Universal carrier with 2pdr AT gun AFAIK; not the Carden-Loyd Mark VI tankette with infantry Vickers gun (experimental vehicle), I am looking for.Those SP guns (with 2pdr AT gun, 25pdr howitzer, AA guns also) were built in 1940, using Universal Carriers as the chassis and were used (or at least were made and tested) by British Expeditionary Forces in France and by British Home Guard because of great shortage of real SP guns.
Photo of the Loyd Carrier with 25pdr howitzer (1940-1941):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... eGuard.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 10:26, edited 2 times in total.
I will be very pleased also if somebody will provide me with any info about British Vickers-Armstrong 6 ton tank, armed with 40mm multi-purpose (AT and AA) gun.
Photo of the Vickers-Armstrong 6 ton tank with 40mm AA gun:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Photo of the Vickers-Armstrong 6 ton tank with 40mm AA gun:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 19 Dec 2005, 21:54, edited 2 times in total.
As far as I know Thailand had bought 26 before the war, but I am not aware about any other users. Check these links:BIGpanzer wrote:I will be very pleased also if somebody will provide me with any info about British Vickers-Armstrong 6 ton tank, armed with 40mm multi-purpose (AT and AA) gun.
Photo is from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks
http://derela.republika.pl/vae2.htm#in
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dpohara/thaiafv.htm
Thank you very much for the links, JTV!
I didn't know that information before and thought that 40mm SP gun, based on Vickers 6 ton tank, was an experimental SP gun. But as I understand now those SP guns (40mm automatic "pom pom") were produced in small series and even 26 (?) were sent to Thailand (Siam) in 1933. Probably, that was really the first tracked AA SP gun!
Regards, BIGpanzer
I didn't know that information before and thought that 40mm SP gun, based on Vickers 6 ton tank, was an experimental SP gun. But as I understand now those SP guns (40mm automatic "pom pom") were produced in small series and even 26 (?) were sent to Thailand (Siam) in 1933. Probably, that was really the first tracked AA SP gun!
Regards, BIGpanzer
British 18pdr SP guns (medium tank Mark I and II chassis)
I also know almost nothing about 18pdr (83,4mm) guns, mounted on British Vickers Mark I and Mark II medium tanks. I only know that several models of such SP guns existed in 1926-1929.
One of them was 18pdr universal (AA + AT) Mk.V gun, mounted openly with shield on rotary platform on Mk.I and Mk.II chassis (weight near 12 t, 24 km/h) - probably, that was the first real tracked SP gun (and AA SP gun also), not based on Vickers 6 ton tank (tractor), we discussed above. There were two open versions: one operated as a straight field gun (1925), while a later (1926) model could elevate to 85° functioned in both field and AA roles. Probably, a single example produced in 1925 and AFAIK issued to 28 Battery, IX Field Artillery Brigade. But a battery of four "Birch guns" with a different mounting were produced in 1926 and were also issued to 20 battery, IX Field Artillery brigade where they were tested extensively for the next few years. They had improved fire control equipment, which varied between examples.
The another was the SP gun with 18pdr "Birch Gun" in rotary armored cabin, based on Mk.II medium tank chassis. Those SP guns were produced as small series and used in experimental battalion of SP guns of Royal Army.
"Birch Gun" was the name after General Sir Noel Birch, Master General of the Ordnance, who was responsible for such gun introduction. SP guns were intended to be the AFVs for the supporting artillery of an experimental armoured force but were short-lived in the British Army. AFAIK, although those SP guns passed the trials satisfactorily, but a number of senior officers were prejudiced against it; one even called it a 'monstrosity'. They argued about it: was it a gun or was it a tank? Money for their development was not forthcoming, so around 1930 the whole scheme was abandoned - and the equipments scrapped.
But this is all I know, please help me with any additional info, photos (especially of the second model with rotary armored cabin), specifications, amount of produced 18pdr SP guns on Mk.I chassis and history of that British experimental battalion.
Photo of the Medium tank Mk.I with 18pdr AA gun:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Photo of the British medium tank Mk.II with 18pdr AA gun (1925):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer
One of them was 18pdr universal (AA + AT) Mk.V gun, mounted openly with shield on rotary platform on Mk.I and Mk.II chassis (weight near 12 t, 24 km/h) - probably, that was the first real tracked SP gun (and AA SP gun also), not based on Vickers 6 ton tank (tractor), we discussed above. There were two open versions: one operated as a straight field gun (1925), while a later (1926) model could elevate to 85° functioned in both field and AA roles. Probably, a single example produced in 1925 and AFAIK issued to 28 Battery, IX Field Artillery Brigade. But a battery of four "Birch guns" with a different mounting were produced in 1926 and were also issued to 20 battery, IX Field Artillery brigade where they were tested extensively for the next few years. They had improved fire control equipment, which varied between examples.
The another was the SP gun with 18pdr "Birch Gun" in rotary armored cabin, based on Mk.II medium tank chassis. Those SP guns were produced as small series and used in experimental battalion of SP guns of Royal Army.
"Birch Gun" was the name after General Sir Noel Birch, Master General of the Ordnance, who was responsible for such gun introduction. SP guns were intended to be the AFVs for the supporting artillery of an experimental armoured force but were short-lived in the British Army. AFAIK, although those SP guns passed the trials satisfactorily, but a number of senior officers were prejudiced against it; one even called it a 'monstrosity'. They argued about it: was it a gun or was it a tank? Money for their development was not forthcoming, so around 1930 the whole scheme was abandoned - and the equipments scrapped.
But this is all I know, please help me with any additional info, photos (especially of the second model with rotary armored cabin), specifications, amount of produced 18pdr SP guns on Mk.I chassis and history of that British experimental battalion.
Photo of the Medium tank Mk.I with 18pdr AA gun:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Photo of the British medium tank Mk.II with 18pdr AA gun (1925):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... onosch.jpg
Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 22 Dec 2005, 23:52, edited 5 times in total.
Fortunately, just now I found some info here:
http://www.jedsite.info/artillery/bravo ... eries.html
The development of 18pdr "Birch gun" on Mark I and II medium tank chassis started in 1923 with the first example being handed over in 1926. They mounted an 18pdr field gun in an integral mounting that provided 360° traverse and 70° elevation for the gun enabling it to undertake AA defence as well as normal artillery fire support. Some sources report that the elevation was not so big and "Birch gun" couldn't be used as AA gun.
2 support vehicles in the Mark 1E cobfiguration were ordered from Vickers in 1927 and differed slightly from each other.
They had full all-round protection for the gun crew in the form of a large circular armoured superstructure with 360° traverse.
Only 7 examples total (Mk.I and Mk.II based) were built in five different styles and development ceased when the Royal Artillery decided that the future of artillery lay in towed artillery.
Photo of the Medium tank Mk.II with 18pdr Birch gun:
http://www.jedsite.info/tanks/victor/vi ... e1_001.jpg
http://www.jedsite.info/artillery/bravo ... eries.html
The development of 18pdr "Birch gun" on Mark I and II medium tank chassis started in 1923 with the first example being handed over in 1926. They mounted an 18pdr field gun in an integral mounting that provided 360° traverse and 70° elevation for the gun enabling it to undertake AA defence as well as normal artillery fire support. Some sources report that the elevation was not so big and "Birch gun" couldn't be used as AA gun.
2 support vehicles in the Mark 1E cobfiguration were ordered from Vickers in 1927 and differed slightly from each other.
They had full all-round protection for the gun crew in the form of a large circular armoured superstructure with 360° traverse.
Only 7 examples total (Mk.I and Mk.II based) were built in five different styles and development ceased when the Royal Artillery decided that the future of artillery lay in towed artillery.
Photo of the Medium tank Mk.II with 18pdr Birch gun:
http://www.jedsite.info/tanks/victor/vi ... e1_001.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 14:52, edited 2 times in total.
Sorry for the very low quality of the old photo, but this is only one I could find. This is the British 47mm open SP gun Mark I, which was built in 1924. Probably, those gun was an AA gun. The view is from rear.
Does anybody know some more info about it - any specifications, amount of produced (was it experimental or low-series) and good photo? Also I couldn't understand which chassis was used for that SP gun - tractor? medium tank Mk I....
Regards, BIGpanzer
Does anybody know some more info about it - any specifications, amount of produced (was it experimental or low-series) and good photo? Also I couldn't understand which chassis was used for that SP gun - tractor? medium tank Mk I....
Regards, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
-
Michael Emrys
- Member
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 19:44
- Location: USA
As I've noted before, I am not well informed on this subject, but just looking at the tracks, it looked to me that it would have been derived from a tractor. And looking at the picture of the Medium Mk. I you provided above confirms that it was definitely not based on that vehicle, I should think. YMMV.BIGpanzer wrote:Also I couldn't understand which chassis was used for that SP gun - tractor? medium tank Mk I....
Hi, Grease_Spot!
Yes, of course, those 47mm SP gun (on the photo) didn't base on medium Mk.I, if to compare the suspension types and construction of the rollers. But when I asked my question I mean the following: some sources report that one of the first British SP guns of interwar period was 47mm SP gun Mk.I, which was built in 1924. Another report that British 47mm SP gun was built in 1924, used Mk.I chassis.
Probably, those were two different models - one mounted on Mk.I tank, second - on tractor, but had the name Mk.I SP gun.
Or there was a mistake in some sources.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find the good photo of this vehicle to understand better which chassis it was. I could only understand that engine of that SP gun was in front, and there were three sittings for the gun's crew and two big bearing behind for the standing fire.
Regards, BIGpanzer
Yes, of course, those 47mm SP gun (on the photo) didn't base on medium Mk.I, if to compare the suspension types and construction of the rollers. But when I asked my question I mean the following: some sources report that one of the first British SP guns of interwar period was 47mm SP gun Mk.I, which was built in 1924. Another report that British 47mm SP gun was built in 1924, used Mk.I chassis.
Probably, those were two different models - one mounted on Mk.I tank, second - on tractor, but had the name Mk.I SP gun.
Or there was a mistake in some sources.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find the good photo of this vehicle to understand better which chassis it was. I could only understand that engine of that SP gun was in front, and there were three sittings for the gun's crew and two big bearing behind for the standing fire.
Regards, BIGpanzer