Help with Russian term/phrase please

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pablo287
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Help with Russian term/phrase please

#1

Post by pablo287 » 09 May 2015, 20:30

On strength returns for Russian units from the First World War there is a column entitled "въ командахъ".
I tried running it through Google translate and got something like "on teams". I couldn't make out the sense. The numbers in this column are often quite large-- 2-3000 for a division.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Pablo

GregSingh
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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#2

Post by GregSingh » 10 May 2015, 04:53

It might mean specialized detachments (squad to company size, rare of battalion size) like pioneers, medics, machine-gun crews, scouts, etc.


Art
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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#3

Post by Art » 10 May 2015, 11:26

I'm not an expert but probably it means "on an errand" or "detached for special duty" (for example, construction or other works).

valpatrak
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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#4

Post by valpatrak » 11 May 2015, 00:36

these words are torn out of the context...it will be easier to understand what it means looking at this paper..

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#5

Post by pablo287 » 11 May 2015, 05:39

Hello,

Thanks for the help. Not really any context to speak of other than what I mentioned above. The term "въ командахъ" is a column heading on strength return reports for Russian units during the Great War.

I've attached a screenshot. Many thanks.
2015-05-11 05.40.58 am.png
Strength return with "въ командахъ"

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#6

Post by history1 » 11 May 2015, 07:35

Hi Pablo,
the left part of this column with the header "Штыковъ" (Sch[sh]tikow) reads "in front companies" the right "in commands". I assume that this are the men of the headquarter companies.
I found two officers with the name Shtikow but don´t know if they have anything to do with this report.
https://tinyurl.com/oqgprm2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terentii_Shtykov
I don´t speak Russian just used the wiki site about cyrillic to transcript the text, Valpatrak will sure be able to tell you axactly what´s it about.

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#7

Post by GregSingh » 11 May 2015, 10:20

Штыковъ means bayonets, so it's really a count of soldiers.

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#8

Post by pablo287 » 11 May 2015, 11:20

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for the input and help. I wonder about the idea of HQ troops, it seems to be a very high percentage. I wonder about the idea of them being troops assigned to MG and specialty unit? Or could they be replacements at the division? Again the numer seems very high

I do have an example of a text with a Russian division having 1800 " extra" troops.

Again, really appreciate any help!

Pablo

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#9

Post by GregSingh » 11 May 2015, 14:14

It's not HQ for sure. Too big as you already noticed.
I do have an example of a text with a Russian division having 1800 " extra" troops.
That would be combat (строевых) and non-combat (нестроевых) troops. But I don't think "нестроевых" is the same as "въ командахъ".
Also your example seems to be missing divisional artillery?

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#10

Post by pablo287 » 11 May 2015, 15:28

That would be combat (строевых) and non-combat (нестроевых) troops. But I don't think "нестроевых" is the same as "въ командахъ".
Also your example seems to be missing divisional artillery?
Hello,

The listing (in text) for the 61st Division I mentioned is like this:

16 battalions, 291 officers (184 of them warrant officers), 14 208 bayonets,
4 740 auxiliary personnel,
1 460 additional men,
48 machine guns
36 guns

Yes, the divisional artillery is cut off from my example-I was just trying to make it small enough to upload here. :)

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#11

Post by valpatrak » 11 May 2015, 17:56

As Russian Brokhaus-Efron encyclopedia,1895,explains this term- "командами называют также небольшие военные административные единицы,имеющие специальный состав чинов или специальное назначение,или временно формируемые для каких-либо надобностей.."
So,Greg Singh is right,that these are some detachments for special ,or temporary purposes.

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#12

Post by Art » 12 May 2015, 14:25

pablo287 wrote:I wonder about the idea of them being troops assigned to MG and specialty unit?
Standard organization of the infantry regiment in 1914 included a machine gun and signal parties/teams:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=161853
Later some other could be added. To give an example the Russian 217 Infantry Regiment after mobilization consisted of:
- staff with 7 officers, 3 officials and a priest
- regimental signal (communication) party with 13 dispatch riders, 21 wiremen and 4 cyclists
- regimental machine gun party - 8 Maxim MG, 2 officers and 88 enlisted men
- regimental scout party - 1 officer and 64 enlisted men
- service company - 2 officers and 240 enlisted
- divisional train platoon - 1 officer and 47 enlisted
- 4 battalions with 16 companies each of 2-3 officers and 240 enlisted men
On 28 November 1915 a cavalry scout party (1 officer, 7 NCOs and 50 privates) was formed. In 1917 a trench artillery party and two additional machine gun parties were formed. From:
http://vladregion.info/articles/formiro ... kogo-polka
400-450 men per regiment in signal, machine gun, scout and trench gun troops doesn't seem to be improbable in the later part of the war.

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Re: Help with Russian term/phrase please

#13

Post by pablo287 » 12 May 2015, 14:30

Standard organization of the infantry regiment in 1914 included a machine gun and signal parties/teams:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=161853
Later some other could be added. To give an example the Russian 217 Infantry Regiment after mobilization consisted of:
- staff with 7 officers, 3 officials and a priest
- regimental signal (communication) party with 13 dispatch riders, 21 wiremen and 4 cyclists
- regimental machine gun party - 8 Maxim MG, 2 officers and 88 enlisted men
- regimental scout party - 1 officer and 64 enlisted men
- service company - 2 officers and 240 enlisted
- divisional train platoon - 1 officer and 47 enlisted
- 4 battalions with 16 companies each of 2-3 officers and 240 enlisted men
On 28 November 1915 a cavalry scout party (1 officer, 7 NCOs and 50 privates) was formed. In 1917 a trench artillery party and two additional machine gun parties were formed. From:
http://vladregion.info/articles/formiro ... kogo-polka
400-450 men per regiment in signal, machine gun, scout and trench gun troops doesn't seem to be improbable in the later part of the war.
Top
Thank you for the very informative post with a concrete example--very useful. I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the strength of most of the Russian divisions I've been looking at--I expected them to be lower in wake of the losses suffered during the summer fighting of 1916--most of them are really quite strong.

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