SS-Totenkopfverbände Officers

[Georg]

G´day all,

No one who can ad something on those three officer of the SS-Kraftfahr AuE btl stationed at Weimar-Buchenwald?

Ok have two more questions, this time is about Bucher and Bücher, Mike asked about them a long time ago and Phil Nix provided the following info:

I have found two officers of similar name in "The Camp Men"
Josef Bucher born 20.11.1917 SS Nr 276204 No Party Nr served in 2 nd Guard C ompany Dachau 1934-35, Das Reich 1940 - 43 Totenkopf 1944 last rank SS Hsf
Arnold Bücher born Rehme 16.12.1899 SS Nr 11862 Party Nr 556757 SS Osf Served in Buchenwald as guard commander i1941 Sachsenhausen 1939 - 41 Plaszow 1944 Neuengamme 1944
pHIL nIX

But now to my questions:

About Josef Bucher:
1. Does anyone know what he did between 1935 and 1940?
2. Does anyone know the units he served in both Reich and Totenkopf?
3. Does anyone have the dates of his promotions SS-Ustuf, SS-Ostuf and SS-Hstuf?

About
Arnold Bücher
1. Does anyonw know what he did between 1941-1944?
2. Does anyone know what his service at KL Sachsenhausen, KL Plaszow and KL Neuengamme was?
3. Can someone provide me the promotiondates of him: SS-Ustuf and SS-Ostuf, was that his last rank?

Thanks in advance,

Best regards,
Georg

[giselher]

Hi Georg and everybody,

sorry for joining in kind of late here, but concerning this photo of supposedly Dr. Fischer of Dachau I have some concerns.

I would read the writing in the same way, but there are problems with it: First and foremost there is a clear spelling error in the word "Konzentrationslager". Before the "lager" it is the wrong "s". Also some other letters do not really look too convincing to me. For example the "r" in "Dr". And the Dr. title should normally have a dot with it.

So either the writer had a problem with writing German or the photo card is a fake.

Also the fact that an older camp physician should have handed out signed photo cards does not sound convincing to me.

If I may have a guess it is a fake: A signed photo of some sort that was later turned into a concentration camp thing, including the stamp. Has anybody seen this type of stamp before? And why should they stamp the back of an unofficial (no uniform) photo? Just my feeling but I would be sceptical.

All the best Tilman

[Georg]

Hello TIlmann,

Welcome back, and thanks for your response regarding the Dr of Dachau, I can admit that the same conclusion have strucked me, that it´s a fake I mean. But I have sent the photo to the Gedenkstätte now and pherhaps I will get a answer in the future, it´s seems to be strange, that no Dr Fischer is among the doctors who is known to have served at the KL Dachau. But we aren´t complete yet or are we?

Best regards,
Georg

[giselher]

Hi Georg, the more I look at it, the more I think it is fake. Also the "s" in "des" is the wrong one and the writing alltogether looks kind of illiterate. I am not experienced in this so don't rely on me alone, but I think it is a fake. I would maybe also inform the Dachau people that we have concerns in this direction so that they don't search too long in the wrong direction but also look at it critically... Tilman

[Georg]

Hello again,

Yes Tilman I will e-mail them and tell them that, I agree it´s good to look at it with critical eyes.

But then I have a another problem, I have a photo of an SS-Ustuf Hauck who served in the SS-T.-St. "Thüringen" (Buchenwald) and later was among those who was the core of the SS-T.-Div. in 1939, But when I search my lists I only found 5 different Hauck and no one of those seems to fit the "Hauck" I have on photo.

It can´t be:
Leander Hauck he served in SS-T.-St. Oberbayern
Walter Hauck served in the SS-Pol.Div and later SS-A.A.12
Those left if there isn´t one more that I am not aware of is:
Dr Ernst Günther Hauck all I know that in 41 he served in SS-A.A.2 as IVb
Helmut Hauck (Ostuf in 44)
and Otto Hauck. (UStuf in 41)

Any suggestions??

Thanks in advance

Best regards,
Georg

[Max Williams]

In answer to some of the questions raised here about the doctor photo……
People are writing off the photo as fake based on the writing on the reverse. This is a mistake. The handwriting on the reverse is written in the third person and is obviously a subsequently added description of the item. It is likely that the writing on front was made by a different hand than that on the reverse. So, it is quite possible that the photo was signed by the doctor and the description was subsequently written by someone else. Therefore there is no correlation between the signature on the front and any errors on the reverse.
The use of the letter S…..my 76 year old mother-in-law still reads and sometimes uses Sütterlin script. She states it was not uncommon for people to use this form of “s”, so it is wrong to read too much into this.
The stamp on the reverse (probably an archival stamp) is an obvious post-war addition and one that I have seen several times on genuine material. This however does not indicate authenticity as it is easily copied.
The dot after the title “Dr.” is there on the front of the photo and it is this signature which should be assessed, not the handwriting on the reverse.
It is certainly also not uncommon for a doctor to sign a portrait photo as this was a very common form of a gift for the time. I have seen many.
Tilman’s suggestion to advise the Dachau museum authorities that you think it is fake, is definitely the wrong thing to do. Their research should be “cold” otherwise you could end up with a biased opinion. You should not plant seeds of doubt from the outset.
It is also possible that the doctor served at the large SS barracks and had nothing to do with the KL. Any SS man in Dachau has often been assumed to have served at the camp and this is not always the case. The same applies to Weimar-Buchenwald, etc.
There are numerous men who served in the KL system and whose identities have remained anonymous, even to post-war museum authorities. Therefore, any response from Dachau should be treated as corroboration, but not definitive. A few years ago, at the Bundesarchiv, I met a couple of historical researchers from the staff at Dachau KL museum. I was amazed at their lack of finite specialist knowledge.
Finally, I should say that I do not know if it is genuine or fake. The only correct and true method of authentication is to physically examine a piece. This photo intrigued me and for such a small outlay I decided to research it further and buy it. If, when it arrives, I discover it is fake, then I will not have lost much and I will have had some enjoyment researching it. On the other hand, if it turns out to be a genuine item, then it’s a bargain.
Max.

[Georg]

Hello Max,

Thanks for you well formed and long contribution in this matter, and you are right I shouldn´t "tell the Gedenkstätte what might hs occured here in this topic, but I am looking forward and see what their suggestion might be.

I am happy that you bought it, was it through this post you became aware of it?

About all the anonymous soldiers and officers who served in the KL system before and during the war, I can only agree with you in that matter, and sometimes I feel that I working on a impossible project tracking and studying officers of the SS-T.V / KL etc. But what the heck I have to do something with my sparetime
In the middle of november I am planning to visit the Bundesarchive in Berlin, and I hope to bring something new to this matter.

By the way, when I once more writing in this thread I can ask you some more, Heinz Brinkmann the later Kdr of the SS-Pz.A.A.10 and well respected officer of the Waffen-SS served before the war in the SS-TV Brandenburg (36-37), there is a nice photo of him as Ustuf after he had graduated from the JS Braunschweig, but does anyonw know in which unit he served in before the Junkerschule, and maybepherhaps what his duty was in the SS-TV Brandenburg?

Thanks in advance,
Georg

Best regards,
Georg

[giselher]

Hi Max, thank you for your opinion on the photo. I am also convinced that the signature on the front is from another hand (and likely to be original and corresponding to the photo) whereas the "description" on the back was added later. Therefore we agree. It is only the question if the later added description on the back was written with any knowledge or not. Therefore we are not far from each-other.

Concerning contacting Dachau you may be right. To leave them unbiased, let us wait and see...

By the way, I very much understand your questioning the research-capabilities in some of the museums and memorials. This is why I value the forum so much because here we have a combined knowledge that is far greater. This is what makes this forum so good. And you are right, there ar lots of names that appear in connection with the camps or with the garrisons attached to the camps that have never been looked at yet. I found another name of a medical officer in the letters of my grandfather that I have not seen anywhere else. I will open a separate thread for that.

...and good luck with your photo.... Tilman

[TH Albright]

Hi Georg..more on Brinkmann...SS-VT Germania 1934-35 and
Josef Bucher
Graduate JS BRAUNSCHWEIG 1936
Camp service
SS-TV Oberbayern 1934-35
SS-TV Elbe 1936-37
SS-TV Brandenburg 1937
served in Das Reich (twice as a Company commander in the PZ Jager Abtl. and regiments Der Fuhrer and Deutschland), Nord and Totenkopf during the war
awarded EKI

[Mikedc]

Georg wrote:

Amt I/SS-WVHA

Sorry, I don't know Amt I within the SS-WVHA, I only know about Amt(or Amtsgruppen)A, B, C, D and W


Mike

[Phil Nix]

Georg wrote:

Amt I/SS-WVHA

Sorry, I don't know Amt I within the SS-WVHA, I only know about Amt(or Amtsgruppen)A, B, C, D and W


Mike

Amt 1under Hans Lorner (Georg Lorner's brother, was in Amtsgruppe A Truppenverwaltung in SS WVHA
Phil Nix

[mh1644]

Hi,
Thought it may be of interest to add that I also have a signed photo of 'Dr Fischer'. It is identical to the one shown, but the reverse has written in ink 'Dr. Fischer SS - Dachau' with no other information and no camp stamp. The signature to the front is the same as the one shown, but the reverse is in plain text and much clearer, although it looks more like Fischler than fischer! It is printed on wartime type Agfa Lupex paper and bears the same photo index no 039. The ink to both front and rear appears to be authentic period additions, and at least certainly has some age- this was definitely not written yesterday!

I bought mine from a source in Germany who obtains items mostly from house clearances, etc. I paid next to nothing for this so was not in any way suspicious that it was a fake. He knew nothing of this photos history or of the Dr in question.

I would love to know how anyone gets on with the search for this curiously unknown doctor?????

[Phil Nix]

Welcome to the Forum. May I suggest that you post the reverse of the pic and one of our 'experts' should be able to help
Phil Nix

[Mikedc]

Hello Phil,

Thanks for your explanation about this Amt I within the SS-WVHA. Apparently my writings on the branche are still not complete so when I've some time I'll try to investigate it a bit better. Since all I've now are Amt A, Amt C, Amt D, Amtsgruppe C and Amtsgruppe D so I guess there's a lot more.....


Greetings,
Mike

[Mikedc]

Okay, did some quick checking regarding the SS-WVHA.
A lot of sites on the internet are mentioning the Ämter A, B, C, D and W but the Axis History Factbook doesn't mention them as Ämter but as Amtsgruppen which are devided into Ämter. So there I did find Amt A I under Standartenführer Hans Lörner(indeed the brother from G. Lörner). So I presume the pronouncement made on AHF, Amtsgruppen instead of Ämter, is correct????


Mike