Death of Christian Wirth

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stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#31

Post by stryder » 30 Apr 2015, 21:55

I am wondering how the partisans developed intelligence that Wirth would be in a particular place at that particular time? My two speculations are this:

1. ULTRA intercepts that were provided to the partisans.
2. Information from fellow Germans who hated Wirth, of which there were many. My main suspect would be Lorenz Hackenholt, since he was known to be in contact and have sold arms to the partisans.

steve248
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#32

Post by steve248 » 01 May 2015, 09:54

Ultra intercepts.
This presupposes (1) there was instant interception and decryption of German radio message which was not the case, sometimes it took days, and (2) such decrypted intercepts being given to partisans, which again was not the case, and (3) why would British Intelligence have taken any interest in a vehicle or two with a SS-Major travelling from point A to point B? Wirth did not feature in any intercepts.

The second point about Hackenholt being in contact with and selling arms to partisans, whether true or not, is simple speculation as to whether he fingered Wirth. Maybe the partisans were simply waiting to shoot up any German vehicles on a stretch of road at the time Wirth appeared.


Peter
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#33

Post by Peter » 01 May 2015, 10:51

I have seen mention in the Tregenza report of Hackenholt selling arms but would be interested to know if anything has survived of Globocnik's staff files/OZAK personnel files, maybe in Slovenian or other local archives ?
thanks
Peter

stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#34

Post by stryder » 01 May 2015, 13:36

The first supposition has a very low chance of being possible, but I included it for discussion. In the second case, perhaps the partisans were just hanging around waiting for targets of opportunity, but that is not usually how ambushes happen. They are typically setup based on some kind of information, otherwise it's a huge waste of time to just sit around and wait for a target to randomly appear.

Also, is was reported that German troops showed up very quickly at the scene after the ambush occurred. Curious.

Max Williams
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#35

Post by Max Williams » 01 May 2015, 13:56

A random attack is not beyond belief, especially on a road which is often used by occupying personnel. Take the attack on Hanns Albin Rauter in Holland. He was not the intended target, but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Max.

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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#36

Post by filigranofil » 01 May 2015, 15:16

Hello,

both speculations from stryder are without any arguments.

Partisans had Data, that some high Officers made frequent Inspections of detachment in Istria and apply this road (Trieste-Castelnuovo d Istria) .

So they wait there...

In the partisans reports they are no Names of the officer, because they do not know the Name.



Also Prefect of Triest Bruno Coceani did not know, who was killed on the road near Kozina...

In the time of WW2 partisans kild also several civil people in the cars from such ambush because they think that only military or police people has right to have a car.


regards
Darko

stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#37

Post by stryder » 01 May 2015, 15:45

Franz Stangl stated that there was a rumor that Wirth had been killed by his own men (Stangl did see the corpse of Wirth). Certainly Wirth was killed by the partisans, but it adds to the possibility that he was set up.

filigranofil
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#38

Post by filigranofil » 02 May 2015, 00:35

Hello,

Franz Stangl was commander of extermination camp Treblinka and chief of "R III" in Udine and after chief of "R II" in Fiume/Rijeka, today Croatia. After the war he escaped from investigation jale in Austria, he traveled through Rome, Libanon and at the end in Brasil.
In Brasil was identified and sent to Germany. There was sentenced in Düsseldorf in the year 1970 for life in jail. In the Jail he died in 1971.

It is normal, that when defend oneself that such Person speak whatever in his benefit.



In former Jugoslavia, nobody, not the Historians, not the partisans, which was on that day (26.5.1944) in Aktion on the road, did not know the name of killed SS Major.

The first Date, when make link between killed SS Major and Wirth was in the Year 1972, when driver of Wirths car, Konrad Geng in interogation give some Data of attack.
Afterwards italian News "Il Meridiano di Trieste" in April 1972 in one Article put Gengs story, that he was with Wirth and also Wirths executioner, "Nikola" from Ukraine.
Maks Zadnik, which was collected Data about partisans aktion in that Area, find the connection between and put the story in Article: Komandant Treblinke in Rižarne je padel pri Kozini, TV 15, 1.6.1972

The partisan did not know, that they will killed the 'Christian the Terrible'.

Slovenian Historian Dr. Tone Ferenc, which made a research of Christian Wirth life put all together in an Article.
It is not custom, that Historian put the name of Article, which is not in usage in Historian language. But he was so affected, that he put the name of Article in slovenian: "Satan, njegovo delo in smrt", Ljubljana 1979 ("Satan, his work and his death.")


regards
Darko

stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#39

Post by stryder » 02 May 2015, 04:01

From the article written by Maks Zadnik, was there any information that the partisans were given specific intelligence about a time and location to set up an ambush? It would be normal if they were not given the name of the target. It is certainly plausible that the ambush was just an attack on a random German target, but I think it is equally plausible that the partisans were given intelligence about the target time and location.

If the partisans were given information, then who could have given it to them? The list of people who hated and were afraid of Christian Wirth was long. There was a general feeling of paranoia among the former Aktion Reinhard personnel. They felt that the SS high command wanted to get rid of them, which is why they were assigned anti-partisan duty, and highly dangerous convoy duty specifically. Some even thought Christian Wirth was one commander in particular who was actively trying to eliminate the A-R personnel.

steve248
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#40

Post by steve248 » 02 May 2015, 09:49

I believe stryder is conflating events to fit his theory, almost said conspiracy theory.
All over Nazi-occupied Europe partisans under whatever guise ambushed German vehicles. The fact that it was German and carried Germans was all that mattered. In Poland, German army, German police, even SS men, were killed in the street. They were targeted as Germans not as a named individual.
"They felt the SS high command wanted to get rid of them" is unlikely. Wirth and his subordinates worked for the HSSPF in Trieste (Globocnik). There was increasing local partisan attacks. The German army, local German gendarmerie, Feldpolizei and SS men were assigned to anti-partisan actions. This was common across Nazi occupied Europe. This was very common in Italy itself.
If the partisans did obtain intelligence about German movements, a more likely source is non-German. If Hackenholt was selling arms to the partisans this begs the question what arms and how was it administratively covered up? Are we talking of an odd pistol or two or boxes of machine guns? And the ammunition? It was also common after SS and police expeditions against the enemy to account for every bullet. You open Pandora's box and suddenly you have to account for things.
If there was a plan to eliminate Aktion Reinhard personnel in Trieste why go to all that bother of "hit and miss" KIA or MIA in the field? The "SS high command" simply hoped that 20 odd men would die in combat? I don't think so. It would be just as simple to have them arrested and sent to a SS-Straflager and executed in secret. Nothing strange in that.
Why the Aktion Reinhardt men? Why not the men who operated the gas chambers and crematorium at, say, Auschwitz or Majdanek.

filigranofil
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#41

Post by filigranofil » 02 May 2015, 10:54

Hello,

slovenian partisans was lying in ambush from 03.00 AM till 7.00 AM. There was 18 partisans in ambush.

Data about some high Officers, which take frequent that way to Istria, partisans got from people, which join to Liberation Front of the Slovene Nation.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation ... ene_Nation


regards
Darko

stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#42

Post by stryder » 03 May 2015, 00:58

It seems then that the ambush was based on some form of developed intelligence, and not a completely random event. Most likely it was just the local people making observations about traffic on the road and then relaying that information to the partisans. However, we know that some of the Ukranian and Latvian Trawnikis did defect to the partisans. It has even been said that the sadist Ivan Marchenko defected. Could these sources of intelligence about that road way? Possibly, but we may never know for certain.

The sense of paranoia among the A-R men was real. Statements to this affect are documented in multiple accounts. Was the paranoia justified? Probably not, but that is what accounts for many of the defections of the Trawnikis, even before A-R was concluded.

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kordic21
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#43

Post by kordic21 » 09 Jun 2015, 12:08

I don´put too much in to those conspiracy theories either. However, when Stangl stated that "he thought that Wirth´s own men had killed him", I think he was perhaps referring to the fact that Wirth so feared and heated by his sub-ordinates (SS & ukrainians a like) and that he put his men in to much danger trying to obtain more military honours for himself. What is certain, is that partisans attacked anything or anyone carrying SS uniforms. Wirth, Reichleitner and others were killed during a short period of time for sure, but this area was so dangerous during that time. Also, some of the AR-men (Potzinger at least) was killed by allied air raids. I guess we never know for sure, but I don´t think this was an operation to kill Wirth specifically. If the brass really would have gotten rid of all the AR personell, they could have done it much more effectively as stated in a post above.

However, I did one time read in an article that Wirth himself was supposedly concerned about "the higher ups" wanting to kill them off and he supposedly pulled a higher ranking officer aside and asked him bluntly. Someone overheard this and the higher ranking officer seemed puzzled by Wirth´s question. I´ll see if I can find the link and post it because I can´t remember the specific details. Maybe someone have the details about this particular incident?

stryder
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#44

Post by stryder » 09 Jun 2015, 21:52

It is fairly certain that the partisans did not know it was Wirth that they attacked. However, there is enough circumstantial evidence that makes it plausible that the partisans were given information that they should setup an ambush on that particular morning on that particular road.

If they were given intelligence to setup an ambush that morning, it is equally plausible that it could have come from Germans who dealt with the partisans or from Trawniki defectors, both of whom hated and feared Wirth. I would like to see a full English translation of the Maks Zadnik account of the ambush.

George_W
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Re: Death of Christian Wirth

#45

Post by George_W » 09 Jun 2015, 23:47

steve248 wrote:In Poland, German army, German police, even SS men, were killed in the street. They were targeted as Germans not as a named individual.
I'm sorry for making the off-topic. You are right, but in many cases partisans/underground members knew perfectly who is the target and the ambush was planned earlier in order to kill named and specific individual (Kutschera, few minor Sipo personnel from KdS Warschau, Gestapo chIef Stamm, KdS Hahn - both attempts unsuccessfull, Krüger and Koppe in Krakau and many others*). But - i can agree - that majority of Wehrmacht or German Police members killed by underground/partisans in occupied Poland were victims of various actions, ambushes etc. not the specific operations against them as named targets.

* I figured out that at least 18 members of BdS Krakau (various KdS) were killed as a result of assasinations against them (specific named individuals), not random ambushes.

George

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