Death of Christian Wirth
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
I found this book by Maks Zadnik online and have been slowly translating it.
http://www.znaci.net/00003/7xx.php?broj=266&bk=811
It seems there was intelligence that an SS Major frequently used that road, and at particular times. I don't think it goes into detail about how that intelligence was derived.
http://www.znaci.net/00003/7xx.php?broj=266&bk=811
It seems there was intelligence that an SS Major frequently used that road, and at particular times. I don't think it goes into detail about how that intelligence was derived.
-
- Member
- Posts: 446
- Joined: 31 Oct 2013, 23:52
- Location: Ljubljana
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Hello stryder,
I have this Book at home, so we can discuse some words or sentences, which is not easy to understand because they have more means.
Book is in slovenian Language, which is my mothers Language.
Regards
Darko
I have this Book at home, so we can discuse some words or sentences, which is not easy to understand because they have more means.
Book is in slovenian Language, which is my mothers Language.
Regards
Darko
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
I am using the Google Translate service for this. The chapter about the ambush definitely mentions a local resident giving information about the road. It also mentions an "informant." There is no indication that I can read to say if the informant and the resident are the same or different persons. The intelligence unit of the partisans would almost certainly have multiple sources of information coming to them. If the informant is someone different, it is plausible that it was a fellow German or a Trawniki defector.
I am also curious if the person in the vehicle identified as a Ukranian named Nicholas would be Nikolay Shalayev, a sadistic guard at Treblinka. Although the translation seems to say that Nicholas was also killed, and Nikolay survived the war (to be executed by the Soviets in 1951.)
I am also curious if the person in the vehicle identified as a Ukranian named Nicholas would be Nikolay Shalayev, a sadistic guard at Treblinka. Although the translation seems to say that Nicholas was also killed, and Nikolay survived the war (to be executed by the Soviets in 1951.)
-
- Member
- Posts: 446
- Joined: 31 Oct 2013, 23:52
- Location: Ljubljana
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Hello stryder,
we can control in the book by Maks Zadnik sentences about collecting Data for intelligence unit of Istrski Odred.
Now we can Follow the organisation for collecting the Data for Intelligence unit of Istrski Odred:
First sentence on Page 319:
Intellegence unit of Istrski Odred had in Kozina very god organized intellegence service which gave Data to Istrski Odred and also to other partisans units.
* This People was peasant or civic people in Kozina, organized in OF (Liberation Front of the Slovene Nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberatio ... ene_Nation
Second sentence on Page 319:
Some People in Kozina new, that Major SS was driving on regular basis From Trieste to Rijeka/Fiume.
Third centence:
Franc Pockaj said to the Author of the Book (Maks Zadnik, of course after War), that Major was comming on very precise time in black car, precise as bus.
They all (informant) did not know who is the man and which role he had in German Police. For this People he was high ranked SS Major.
Also Headquater of Istrski Odred did not know, who was the man, who was killed near Kozina.
Report of Istrski Odred Nr.628/3, 27.5.1944 (see on the Page 319):
"...it was attacked and killed "Major of Police Units"...
Partisan Intellegence Unit did not know much about what happened in Risiera San Sabba in Triest, particulary not the Roll of Wirth in Aktion Reinhard camps.
Yes, Partisans had also some informers in Triest, but no Message was sent about Wirth.
As I said before, there are Dokuments, that also Chief of the Police in Triest did not know, who was killed near Kozina, neither Prefect of Triest Bruno Coceani.
Regards
Darko
we can control in the book by Maks Zadnik sentences about collecting Data for intelligence unit of Istrski Odred.
Only for the reason of Page Nummber...stryder wrote:I am using the Google Translate service for this. The chapter about the ambush definitely mentions a local resident giving information about the road. It also mentions an "informant." There is no indication that I can read to say if the informant and the resident are the same or different persons. The intelligence unit of the partisans would almost certainly have multiple sources of information coming to them. If the informant is someone different, it is plausible that it was a fellow German or a Trawniki defector.
Now we can Follow the organisation for collecting the Data for Intelligence unit of Istrski Odred:
First sentence on Page 319:
Intellegence unit of Istrski Odred had in Kozina very god organized intellegence service which gave Data to Istrski Odred and also to other partisans units.
* This People was peasant or civic people in Kozina, organized in OF (Liberation Front of the Slovene Nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberatio ... ene_Nation
Second sentence on Page 319:
Some People in Kozina new, that Major SS was driving on regular basis From Trieste to Rijeka/Fiume.
Third centence:
Franc Pockaj said to the Author of the Book (Maks Zadnik, of course after War), that Major was comming on very precise time in black car, precise as bus.
They all (informant) did not know who is the man and which role he had in German Police. For this People he was high ranked SS Major.
Also Headquater of Istrski Odred did not know, who was the man, who was killed near Kozina.
Report of Istrski Odred Nr.628/3, 27.5.1944 (see on the Page 319):
"...it was attacked and killed "Major of Police Units"...
Partisan Intellegence Unit did not know much about what happened in Risiera San Sabba in Triest, particulary not the Roll of Wirth in Aktion Reinhard camps.
Yes, Partisans had also some informers in Triest, but no Message was sent about Wirth.
As I said before, there are Dokuments, that also Chief of the Police in Triest did not know, who was killed near Kozina, neither Prefect of Triest Bruno Coceani.
Regards
Darko
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
If Wirth often traveled on that road and at precise times, that was stupid of him and made it easy for the local residents to observe that pattern and report it. It seems there is really no indication that anyone other than locals gave information to the partisans.
So much for my conspiracy theory, but if the evidence doesn't fit, you have to dismiss the theory. Any more on the identity or fate of Nicholas?
So much for my conspiracy theory, but if the evidence doesn't fit, you have to dismiss the theory. Any more on the identity or fate of Nicholas?
-
- Member
- Posts: 11158
- Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
- Location: South UK
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
I think there's too much conjecture, producing all sorts of conspiracy theories. I'm pretty sure that local partisans knew that the particular road was often used by German personnel and lay in wait to ambush whatever military target came along. It was unfortunate for Wirth that it was his turn on that particular day. In my opinion, an attack with a completely random target and outcome. Just bad luck for Wirth.
Max.
Max.
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
We can be certain that the ambush was not a completely random event. The locals observed that an SS-Major regularly used that road. The partisans would have had a reasonably good idea that the "Major" would be on the road that particular morning.
It is too dangerous for ambushers to hang about longer than necessary waiting for a random event to happen. The Maks Zadnik book even states that it was dangerous for the partisans to be at that site near Kozina.
It is too dangerous for ambushers to hang about longer than necessary waiting for a random event to happen. The Maks Zadnik book even states that it was dangerous for the partisans to be at that site near Kozina.
-
- Member
- Posts: 11158
- Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
- Location: South UK
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
I disagree. We cannot be certain about anything. It's all conjecture. The only way anyone can be certain is with prima facie evidence from one of the perpetrators.
Max.
Max.
Last edited by Max Williams on 15 Jun 2015, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
My original thesis was that the partisans were given specific information about the travel habits of Christian Wirth by either fellow Germans or defectors because he was such a hated person. In light of more details available from the Max Zadnik book, only a small part of that thesis seems to be true. The partisans were indeed given information about the travel habits of an SS-Major, which allowed an ambush to be coordinated. However, the only people who appear to have given information was the local residents, and nobody knew the exact identity of the SS-Major.
Completely random, meaning a random target, at a random location, at a random time is not correct. Certainly there is an element of randomness since the ambushers probably did not know the exact minute when the SS-Major would arrive. The intelligence collected by the partisans seems to be detailed enough that it allowed them to set the ambush for that morning on that road.
Completely random, meaning a random target, at a random location, at a random time is not correct. Certainly there is an element of randomness since the ambushers probably did not know the exact minute when the SS-Major would arrive. The intelligence collected by the partisans seems to be detailed enough that it allowed them to set the ambush for that morning on that road.
-
- Member
- Posts: 11158
- Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
- Location: South UK
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Max Williams wrote:I think there's too much conjecture, producing all sorts of conspiracy theories. I'm pretty sure that local partisans knew that the particular road was often used by German personnel and lay in wait to ambush whatever military target came along. It was unfortunate for Wirth that it was his turn on that particular day. In my opinion, an attack with a completely random target and outcome. Just bad luck for Wirth.
Max.
Your interpretation and representation of what I said is wrong. I did not say the location was random. I did not say the time was random. What I did say, was that the target was completely random. To repeat ... I believe the most likely scenario was that the partisans knew that road was used by German military personnel and probably were also aware of the most likely times it was used by them. They lay in wait to ambush a military target at the optimum time and it just happened that Wirth came along and was selected. Much the same as in the attack on Hanns Albin Rauter in Holland. The Dutch partisans knew German military trucks used the road during the night and they stopped a vehicle which turned out to be Rauter's staff car.stryder wrote:My original thesis was that the partisans were given specific information about the travel habits of Christian Wirth by either fellow Germans or defectors because he was such a hated person. In light of more details available from the Max Zadnik book, only a small part of that thesis seems to be true. The partisans were indeed given information about the travel habits of an SS-Major, which allowed an ambush to be coordinated. However, the only people who appear to have given information was the local residents, and nobody knew the exact identity of the SS-Major.
Completely random, meaning a random target, at a random location, at a random time is not correct. Certainly there is an element of randomness since the ambushers probably did not know the exact minute when the SS-Major would arrive. The intelligence collected by the partisans seems to be detailed enough that it allowed them to set the ambush for that morning on that road.
To my mind, you are hoping to make something out of an event that had a simple explanation.
Max.
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
I believe that the death of Wirth is quite similar to the death of Generalleutnant Kurt Renner near Ozarow on 25 August 1943. Polish partisans made an road ambush to get some weapons and ammunition from the Germans and it was only coincidence that they stopped vehicles with German general and his staff inside. In the following battle all the Germans were killed, including Renner and his aide Major Dr. Maeser.
George
George
-
- Member
- Posts: 11158
- Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
- Location: South UK
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
George,
I agree. It makes more sense than all these unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
Max.
I agree. It makes more sense than all these unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
Max.
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Stryder offered a theory and then dismissed it when presented information that proved it wrong.
Now Max Williams has presented a different theory that is denied by information presented by Darko.
I hope it's all right to interfere with the translation of the paragraph that Darko has posted. It shows that partisans did not »lay in wait to ambush a military target at the optimum time and it just happened that Wirth came along« but they did lay in wait to ambush the SS-Major at the time they knew he would come along.
Here's the translation:
Detachment's intelligence centre in Kozina had a well organized intelligence service which was very accurate in survailling the enemy's traffic and reported on a regular basis to he intelligence centre of Istrski odred (Istra detachment) and other units. Many people in Kozina knew that an SS-Major frequently drove from Trieste/Trst to Rijeka/Reka and arrived punctual at a particular time. Franc Počkaj told to the author that the Major had been arriving punctual as a bus in a black „vetura“. An 8-men group of the first battalion commanded by Rudi Mahnič – Žito that had been staying in the Socerb and Beka area was informed about it. Group's member Rudolf Požru, a local from Beka, still remembered in 1972 that they learned of the SS-Major's visits and informed the first battalion headquarters of it and intended to attack the major but then the group was visited by the battalion commander's deputy Karel Vene who forbade the attack and informed the group members that the attack on that major would be carried out by a company lead by the first battalion commander.
Here's the original text:
Now Max Williams has presented a different theory that is denied by information presented by Darko.
I hope it's all right to interfere with the translation of the paragraph that Darko has posted. It shows that partisans did not »lay in wait to ambush a military target at the optimum time and it just happened that Wirth came along« but they did lay in wait to ambush the SS-Major at the time they knew he would come along.
Here's the translation:
Detachment's intelligence centre in Kozina had a well organized intelligence service which was very accurate in survailling the enemy's traffic and reported on a regular basis to he intelligence centre of Istrski odred (Istra detachment) and other units. Many people in Kozina knew that an SS-Major frequently drove from Trieste/Trst to Rijeka/Reka and arrived punctual at a particular time. Franc Počkaj told to the author that the Major had been arriving punctual as a bus in a black „vetura“. An 8-men group of the first battalion commanded by Rudi Mahnič – Žito that had been staying in the Socerb and Beka area was informed about it. Group's member Rudolf Požru, a local from Beka, still remembered in 1972 that they learned of the SS-Major's visits and informed the first battalion headquarters of it and intended to attack the major but then the group was visited by the battalion commander's deputy Karel Vene who forbade the attack and informed the group members that the attack on that major would be carried out by a company lead by the first battalion commander.
Here's the original text:
-
- Member
- Posts: 11158
- Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
- Location: South UK
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Thanks for posting that.
It is still hearsay, but if it is to be believed, it now begs the question "why did Wirth drive frequently from Trieste to Rijeka"? Also, "why would he drive at the same time when making that particular journey to the point of being punctual"?
"Frequently" means "from time to time, more than a few".
Wirth's duties were based in Trieste, the location of his quarters and office. What attracted him to Rijeka on a frequent basis? Did he travel there on the same days of the week?
There are so many unanswered questions and one piece of hearsay evidence needs to be backed up with further evidence before it should be accepted per se.
Max.
It is still hearsay, but if it is to be believed, it now begs the question "why did Wirth drive frequently from Trieste to Rijeka"? Also, "why would he drive at the same time when making that particular journey to the point of being punctual"?
"Frequently" means "from time to time, more than a few".
Wirth's duties were based in Trieste, the location of his quarters and office. What attracted him to Rijeka on a frequent basis? Did he travel there on the same days of the week?
There are so many unanswered questions and one piece of hearsay evidence needs to be backed up with further evidence before it should be accepted per se.
Max.
Re: Death of Christian Wirth
Dear Max,
I only interfered to help with the translation of the information presented. I am sure that Darko can present more details
I only interfered to help with the translation of the information presented. I am sure that Darko can present more details
If that is so my translation was not adequate. The Slovene word »pogosto« is not just "from time to time, more than a few", it is »often«Max Williams wrote:"Frequently" means "from time to time, more than a few".
As I remember historian Tone Ferenc wrote about it and explained how Wirth was charged with the security of the road hence his often travels.Max Williams wrote:Wirth's duties were based in Trieste, the location of his quarters and office. What attracted him to Rijeka on a frequent basis? Did he travel there on the same days of the week?