Globocnik suicide
- von Putzbrunn
- Member
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- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Well, naturally, I dont have any proof that herr Globocnik didnt kill himself. If I had, plenty of other people would also have it and this wouldnt be an argument here. Im not saying he DIDNT kill himself, its just that this is a case I have looked into really carefully and spent a lot of time on and the conclusion is: I am not CONVINCED that herr Globocnik died on that day in 1945, or any other day in 1945 either for that matter. But of course, I cant say too much here, since I dont have the necessary proof at this time. My post was merely concerning where his body would have ended up.
I too would be very much interested in reading any further development 'Eichmann' has on this...
In the meantime, to answer your question about the body, as I quoted in my previous post :
"We received no orders on the disposal of the corpse, so, after it had been identified and there appeared no further use for it, I ordered Sergeant Sowler to bury it in a grave, dug for that purpose by the Regimental Police, in one of the small fields lying on both sides of a path leading from behind the RHG building. This was done, and the turf replaced to conceal the grave." (Brigadier Guy Wheeler)
Cheers
Eddy
In the meantime, to answer your question about the body, as I quoted in my previous post :
"We received no orders on the disposal of the corpse, so, after it had been identified and there appeared no further use for it, I ordered Sergeant Sowler to bury it in a grave, dug for that purpose by the Regimental Police, in one of the small fields lying on both sides of a path leading from behind the RHG building. This was done, and the turf replaced to conceal the grave." (Brigadier Guy Wheeler)
Cheers
Eddy
The post by EICHMANN to justify his position is confusing. On one hand he states he isn't convinced that Globocnik died at any time in 1945 but on the other, he has no documentation or sources because he has "carefully looked" into the matter.
Perhaps, like all conspiracy theories he should consider whether the officers and men of the Queens Own Hussars were telling lies about the events that day at Paternion. Why should they do that?
Whether the postwar interrogations by the Austrian and West German police of Lerch and Höfle who repeated the events of that day some 20 years later. Why would they lie?
Whether Friedrich Rainer told his Yugoslav interrogators the same story before he was executed. What could he gain?
And finally, if Globocnik did not die that day or any other day in 1945 what happened to him? He was hardly an asset for any postwar intelligence service. More of a liability. Neither the Austrians nor the West Germans began looking for him to answer war crimes charges, both convinced he died at Paternion.
And if he wasn't the suicide at Paternion, who was?
Please, EICHMANN, let us have your facts.
Perhaps, like all conspiracy theories he should consider whether the officers and men of the Queens Own Hussars were telling lies about the events that day at Paternion. Why should they do that?
Whether the postwar interrogations by the Austrian and West German police of Lerch and Höfle who repeated the events of that day some 20 years later. Why would they lie?
Whether Friedrich Rainer told his Yugoslav interrogators the same story before he was executed. What could he gain?
And finally, if Globocnik did not die that day or any other day in 1945 what happened to him? He was hardly an asset for any postwar intelligence service. More of a liability. Neither the Austrians nor the West Germans began looking for him to answer war crimes charges, both convinced he died at Paternion.
And if he wasn't the suicide at Paternion, who was?
Please, EICHMANN, let us have your facts.
If I am not correct didn´t anyone here on this Forum post a photo on the site where Odilo was buried in 1945. If I remember corectly there was a little mess about that he (who it was) published the location where it was. But I can remember wrong, it could have been some other SS soldier/officer of the Aktion Reinhard.
Best reg.
Georg
Best reg.
Georg
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- Member
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- Location: South UK
Eichmann,Eichmann wrote:Well, naturally, I dont have any proof that herr Globocnik didnt kill himself. If I had, plenty of other people would also have it and this wouldnt be an argument here. Im not saying he DIDNT kill himself, its just that this is a case I have looked into really carefully and spent a lot of time on and the conclusion is: I am not CONVINCED that herr Globocnik died on that day in 1945, or any other day in 1945 either for that matter. But of course, I cant say too much here, since I dont have the necessary proof at this time. My post was merely concerning where his body would have ended up.
I didn't ask for PROOF, I asked for your alternative outcome with supporting evidence. If you have "looked into" this case "really carefully", maybe you can enlighten us as to where you have conducted your exhaustive research. If you have new evidence, then please do tell. Otherwise, making such meaningless statements are....well, meaningless and they do your credibility no good. I am always interested in opposing views which are plausible as I am sure are other serious and experienced historians.
Max.
More info according "Globos" death, from the 4 th Hussars Rgt´l history:
29/5/1945 Kuhweide and friend came to Schloss at PATERNION and reported that Kreisleiter Hugo Herzog and another man were hiding in a hut on Weiderschwing Peak. K reported that 5 of his men armed with pistols had surrounded the hut and would shoot the men if the attempted to go away. A 4th Hussars party was organised consisting of Lt WK Hedley and Sgt Sowler armed with Tommy guns, with K and his friend. On reaching the top of the peak, K went ahead to the hut. Sgt Sowler went to the back of the hut and Lt Hedley entered through the front and both men, though armed, surrendered without a struggle. The second man proved to be Kreis Propaganda Leiter Freidrich Plob. They were arrested and taken to prison at PATERNION where they were held until taken over by Capt Willett, 78 Div Provost Staff.
1800 – E reported that 2 SS men were hiding at STOCKENBOI No. 34 disguised as agricultural workers. 2300 – These two men were arrested and gave their names as Seigfried Kummerer and ? Schutz.
30/5/1945 1500 – Both men were interrogated and Kummerer admitted to being a Cpl in the SS with 6 years service. He had served 2 periods at DACHAU and protested that he took no active part in any “atrocity duties” at that camp. Schutz was released.
2200 – Kummerer volunteered a statement to the effect that one SS Gruppenfuhrer and three SS Sturmbannfuhrer and one other SS man and two women were hiding in a hut on the MOSSLACHER ALM. An expedition comprising two Officers Special Force, Major Ramsey and Lt Birkett, and three Officers, Major Quarmby, Capt Wheeler and Lt Hedley, with 12 ORs 4th Hussars, was therefore organised to go to this hut to which Kummerer was willing to guide the party.
31/5/1945 0430 – The party arrived at the hut.
0500 – Hut surrounded.
0510 – The door at the front was opened by Major Ramsey who had entered through a loft window. The door at the back was forced by Major Quarmby and Lt Hedley. Four men were found in the front of the house. Interrogation began at once and all men except the Gauleiter and SS Sturmbannfuhrer Lerch denied any knowledge of the SS. The women were allowed to remain in the hut, but arrangements are in hand (1430 hours) to arrest them. Dr Rainer, Lerch, three unidentified suspects and a fourth man who gave references in KLAGENFURT were brought down to the prison at PATERNION.
0715 – Schutz re-arrested on accusation of Kummerer.
1130 – The man suspected of being Glovocnik (Globocnic / G) was trapped into acknowledging his name by a slight movement of his head when Major Ramsey shouted his name across the courtyard. He was ordered into arrest and poisoned himself with Prussic acid while walking the 150 yards between the Castle yard and the prison. Capt MM Leigh RAMC attempted to revive him but was unsuccessful. It was considered that he had had this poison concealed in his mouth from the moment in which the first alarm was raised at the hut as he consistently refused all form of refreshment. Three suspects on viewing the body confessed their identities as:-Sturmbannfuhrer der SS Michaelson,SS Sturmbannfuhrer Hoffle,Oberscharfuhrer Karl Hellesberger SS in TRIESTE.
1245 – all eight prisoners were removed by Capt Willett, leaving only Schutz in detention
and under further investigation.
1/6/1945 Three SS men arrested and sent to PoW cage SPITTALL.
2-4/6/1945 Nothing to report.
5/6/1945 The Regt was visited by Field Marshall Sir HRLG Alexander GCB CSI DSO MC ADC.
6-8/6/1945 Nothing to report.
9/6/1945 SS Obersturmfuhrer der Kriminal Polizei Karl Peer arrested.
10/6/1945 Acting on information a party of 2 Officers and 6 ORs arrested 5 members of the SS including the Deputy Gauleiter of Carinthia, Freiderich Thimel, in a hut at 5686. The SS men carried arms but offered no resistance. A search produced a Solbuch in the name of Hauptsturmfuhrerer Fredrich Ahrens. Becker, Dahl and Burdorf admitted their identity but Steuer said he was only a Cpl in the Army. His Soldbuch was found later and he admitted his identity. Equally divided among the packs was the sum of approx 1.5 million Lire which was alleged by Steuer to be his Regtl funds. 1,400,216 Lire paid into the appropriate bank in VILLACH on order of the Property Control Office. Names of captured personnel:- SS Standartenfuhrer Frederich Thimel, Obersturmfuhrer der Waffen SS Freiderich Steuer, Oberscherfuhrer Ernst Dahl, Oberscherfuhrer Albert Burdorf, Unterscherfuhrer Albert Becker
11/6/1945 Nothing to report.
12/6/1945 Ruth Doering, a secretary of the SS Staff in TRIESTE arrested and sent to KLAGENFURT.
13/6/1945 Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Jochim and Emmi Mokry both of the SS staff TRIESTE arrested and handed over to the appropriate authority for investigation.
14/6/1945 Nothing to report.
15/6/1945 Small dump of MT found at C6592.
16-17/6/1945 Nothing to report.
18/6/1945 Major RR Archer returned from hospital and took over command of HQ Sqn.
19-20/6/1945 Nothing to report.
21/6/1945 Major JLE Ogier MC returned from hospital and took over command of B Sqn.
22/6/1945 Nothing to report.
23/6/1945 11 SS men arrested and sent to PoW cage SPITTAL
24-25/6/1945 Nothing to report.
26/6/1945 Adam Kappeller, former Kreiskassenleiter SPITTAL arrested.
27/6/1945 Nothing to report.
28/6/1945 Karl Kirschbaumer arrested and handed over for investigation.
Interessting to read that several SS officers/soldiers (Incl. Globocnic) was betrayd by this Kummerer, anyone knows his fate after the war?
Best reg.
Georg
29/5/1945 Kuhweide and friend came to Schloss at PATERNION and reported that Kreisleiter Hugo Herzog and another man were hiding in a hut on Weiderschwing Peak. K reported that 5 of his men armed with pistols had surrounded the hut and would shoot the men if the attempted to go away. A 4th Hussars party was organised consisting of Lt WK Hedley and Sgt Sowler armed with Tommy guns, with K and his friend. On reaching the top of the peak, K went ahead to the hut. Sgt Sowler went to the back of the hut and Lt Hedley entered through the front and both men, though armed, surrendered without a struggle. The second man proved to be Kreis Propaganda Leiter Freidrich Plob. They were arrested and taken to prison at PATERNION where they were held until taken over by Capt Willett, 78 Div Provost Staff.
1800 – E reported that 2 SS men were hiding at STOCKENBOI No. 34 disguised as agricultural workers. 2300 – These two men were arrested and gave their names as Seigfried Kummerer and ? Schutz.
30/5/1945 1500 – Both men were interrogated and Kummerer admitted to being a Cpl in the SS with 6 years service. He had served 2 periods at DACHAU and protested that he took no active part in any “atrocity duties” at that camp. Schutz was released.
2200 – Kummerer volunteered a statement to the effect that one SS Gruppenfuhrer and three SS Sturmbannfuhrer and one other SS man and two women were hiding in a hut on the MOSSLACHER ALM. An expedition comprising two Officers Special Force, Major Ramsey and Lt Birkett, and three Officers, Major Quarmby, Capt Wheeler and Lt Hedley, with 12 ORs 4th Hussars, was therefore organised to go to this hut to which Kummerer was willing to guide the party.
31/5/1945 0430 – The party arrived at the hut.
0500 – Hut surrounded.
0510 – The door at the front was opened by Major Ramsey who had entered through a loft window. The door at the back was forced by Major Quarmby and Lt Hedley. Four men were found in the front of the house. Interrogation began at once and all men except the Gauleiter and SS Sturmbannfuhrer Lerch denied any knowledge of the SS. The women were allowed to remain in the hut, but arrangements are in hand (1430 hours) to arrest them. Dr Rainer, Lerch, three unidentified suspects and a fourth man who gave references in KLAGENFURT were brought down to the prison at PATERNION.
0715 – Schutz re-arrested on accusation of Kummerer.
1130 – The man suspected of being Glovocnik (Globocnic / G) was trapped into acknowledging his name by a slight movement of his head when Major Ramsey shouted his name across the courtyard. He was ordered into arrest and poisoned himself with Prussic acid while walking the 150 yards between the Castle yard and the prison. Capt MM Leigh RAMC attempted to revive him but was unsuccessful. It was considered that he had had this poison concealed in his mouth from the moment in which the first alarm was raised at the hut as he consistently refused all form of refreshment. Three suspects on viewing the body confessed their identities as:-Sturmbannfuhrer der SS Michaelson,SS Sturmbannfuhrer Hoffle,Oberscharfuhrer Karl Hellesberger SS in TRIESTE.
1245 – all eight prisoners were removed by Capt Willett, leaving only Schutz in detention
and under further investigation.
1/6/1945 Three SS men arrested and sent to PoW cage SPITTALL.
2-4/6/1945 Nothing to report.
5/6/1945 The Regt was visited by Field Marshall Sir HRLG Alexander GCB CSI DSO MC ADC.
6-8/6/1945 Nothing to report.
9/6/1945 SS Obersturmfuhrer der Kriminal Polizei Karl Peer arrested.
10/6/1945 Acting on information a party of 2 Officers and 6 ORs arrested 5 members of the SS including the Deputy Gauleiter of Carinthia, Freiderich Thimel, in a hut at 5686. The SS men carried arms but offered no resistance. A search produced a Solbuch in the name of Hauptsturmfuhrerer Fredrich Ahrens. Becker, Dahl and Burdorf admitted their identity but Steuer said he was only a Cpl in the Army. His Soldbuch was found later and he admitted his identity. Equally divided among the packs was the sum of approx 1.5 million Lire which was alleged by Steuer to be his Regtl funds. 1,400,216 Lire paid into the appropriate bank in VILLACH on order of the Property Control Office. Names of captured personnel:- SS Standartenfuhrer Frederich Thimel, Obersturmfuhrer der Waffen SS Freiderich Steuer, Oberscherfuhrer Ernst Dahl, Oberscherfuhrer Albert Burdorf, Unterscherfuhrer Albert Becker
11/6/1945 Nothing to report.
12/6/1945 Ruth Doering, a secretary of the SS Staff in TRIESTE arrested and sent to KLAGENFURT.
13/6/1945 Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Jochim and Emmi Mokry both of the SS staff TRIESTE arrested and handed over to the appropriate authority for investigation.
14/6/1945 Nothing to report.
15/6/1945 Small dump of MT found at C6592.
16-17/6/1945 Nothing to report.
18/6/1945 Major RR Archer returned from hospital and took over command of HQ Sqn.
19-20/6/1945 Nothing to report.
21/6/1945 Major JLE Ogier MC returned from hospital and took over command of B Sqn.
22/6/1945 Nothing to report.
23/6/1945 11 SS men arrested and sent to PoW cage SPITTAL
24-25/6/1945 Nothing to report.
26/6/1945 Adam Kappeller, former Kreiskassenleiter SPITTAL arrested.
27/6/1945 Nothing to report.
28/6/1945 Karl Kirschbaumer arrested and handed over for investigation.
Interessting to read that several SS officers/soldiers (Incl. Globocnic) was betrayd by this Kummerer, anyone knows his fate after the war?
Best reg.
Georg
One more thing if "Eichmann" is a "Believer" in "Stahl", not even D Irving believe that Stahl has stated.
Here is what I found on Irvings on site:
"Twenty years later he was still taking in the gullible. He deceived even Gitta Sereny, but only for a short time, with a fake document about the end of Odilo Globocnic, Himmler's chief mass-murderer, in Austria."
Best reg.
Georg
Here is what I found on Irvings on site:
"Twenty years later he was still taking in the gullible. He deceived even Gitta Sereny, but only for a short time, with a fake document about the end of Odilo Globocnic, Himmler's chief mass-murderer, in Austria."
Best reg.
Georg
- von Putzbrunn
- Member
- Posts: 160
- Joined: 30 Jun 2007, 17:59
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Whoa! ! !
Been away for a while (Im not visiting this forum everyday).
I really didnt mean to start a thunderstorm in here! ! !
I was simply wondering if Max had any information about where herr Globocniks body had been moved when the constuctionwork started at the site. I think you guys are making a lot out of nothing. Still, some of you have asked curiously - thats good! Some of you have actually been kinda rude - that not good! I dont like that.
This is supposed to be a friendly forum.
Im not going to go into everything here on this site, but, "Georg" : Im NOT a believer in Stahl - then again, not in Sereny either. The photo that convinced Sereny (its posted by someone on the first page on this link) doesnt convince ME one bit. What does that photo show? A few SS men and a body on the ground. Thats it !
If a ANYONE of you guys would have been the one in charge of taking a photo to prove the death of Globocnik, wouldnt you have taken it from an ankle where you can actually see the face of the deceased? I would have ! Stahl is a fool but hes right about one thing! The Americans WERE trying to "steal" a lot of German seniors at the end of the war. There is proof of that. I think you all know it. Someone asked : why would the hire Globocnik? Wrong question. What you should ask is : Why wouldnt they? They hired plenty of SS officers! Globocnik would have been a great catch! Do you really not think they would have lied about it?! They wanted Globocnik but they world would never allow it. So he had to die or "disappear". Every other SS man who were executed or committed suicide HAVE A GRAVE! Pohl, Weiss, Höss, Stangl. Hell, even the RFSS himself! ! ! ! Thats why I was intrested to the answer to the question I asked : Where is the body of Odilo Globocnik? Well, its gone! Nobody knows! It doesnt exist! Some say: Well, the photo proves it! The man on that photo might as well be me! Im not gonna try to convince you any further (yet), but in conclusion of this post : A: The Americans wanted him. B: Photoevidence is insufficient. C: There is no body. And dont say: Yeah but the testimonies... Those testimonies are not worth the paper theyre written on. Think about who gave them.....
Again, Im sorry if I cause a thunderstorm in here. I really wasnt my meaning! Keep on keeping this great forum alive! ! ! !
Eichmann
Been away for a while (Im not visiting this forum everyday).
I really didnt mean to start a thunderstorm in here! ! !
I was simply wondering if Max had any information about where herr Globocniks body had been moved when the constuctionwork started at the site. I think you guys are making a lot out of nothing. Still, some of you have asked curiously - thats good! Some of you have actually been kinda rude - that not good! I dont like that.
This is supposed to be a friendly forum.
Im not going to go into everything here on this site, but, "Georg" : Im NOT a believer in Stahl - then again, not in Sereny either. The photo that convinced Sereny (its posted by someone on the first page on this link) doesnt convince ME one bit. What does that photo show? A few SS men and a body on the ground. Thats it !
If a ANYONE of you guys would have been the one in charge of taking a photo to prove the death of Globocnik, wouldnt you have taken it from an ankle where you can actually see the face of the deceased? I would have ! Stahl is a fool but hes right about one thing! The Americans WERE trying to "steal" a lot of German seniors at the end of the war. There is proof of that. I think you all know it. Someone asked : why would the hire Globocnik? Wrong question. What you should ask is : Why wouldnt they? They hired plenty of SS officers! Globocnik would have been a great catch! Do you really not think they would have lied about it?! They wanted Globocnik but they world would never allow it. So he had to die or "disappear". Every other SS man who were executed or committed suicide HAVE A GRAVE! Pohl, Weiss, Höss, Stangl. Hell, even the RFSS himself! ! ! ! Thats why I was intrested to the answer to the question I asked : Where is the body of Odilo Globocnik? Well, its gone! Nobody knows! It doesnt exist! Some say: Well, the photo proves it! The man on that photo might as well be me! Im not gonna try to convince you any further (yet), but in conclusion of this post : A: The Americans wanted him. B: Photoevidence is insufficient. C: There is no body. And dont say: Yeah but the testimonies... Those testimonies are not worth the paper theyre written on. Think about who gave them.....
Again, Im sorry if I cause a thunderstorm in here. I really wasnt my meaning! Keep on keeping this great forum alive! ! ! !
Eichmann
Hello Eichmann,
How do you know that ht ebody is gone? I have located the area where body was buried in 1945, and I have even found the man who owns the land where it is buried, I will write and ask him a little bit about this matter. The document from the link I posted is an official Autrian Gov. Doc. and it states that he is still buried there, not that he has been removed.
Abut your other claims in your last post, "Globos" was captured by the English not the US, and what I know wasn´t the UK Gov so keen to capture Germans for their own benefit, that was more the US and the Russians, but when they captured one for their skills there was most sciencetists or if they had valuable info about a certain thing, like the US wanted someone who had great knowledge about the Russians (Gehlen as example). What they would use Globo which only real knowledge was a an administrative massmurder and a little knowledge how to trace and fight partisans.
About the graves: ys every one has a grave and so Globos, you claim that hte RFSS has a grave: (OK he is buried) but no one knows the exact location, only the two UK soldiers who buried him knows it. And if you call Lüneburger Heide as an exact location, you should visit that area and you would see how big it´s. Other who doesn´t have a grave is so many that I can´t count them, but the best example is all of them hanged after the first trial at IMT: (Göring, Streicher, Ribbentrop etc).
Why they didn´t take i picture from right angle at Globos is to me unknown, but i think that Globos wasn´t the main subect on the photo which is published, more likely is that Lerch, Höffle etc. is the main subject on the photo. And when Globos was dead he wasn´t interessting for them. I think that he just was a dead warcriminal in their point of view. Bu thten I think there exist more photos of him, this is jsut the only known one, we have the dead body of RFSS as an example, it still come photos taken on his body by other but not official ones.
About if we are friendly or not: You got a coupleof polite questions where you had gotten your conclusions from, but then you didn´t answer and if you give such claims historians want to know the source, if not! Your conclusions isn´t worth more then what is under my shoe after a long walk.
the kind of conclusions that you provided is like I would tell all that I had evidence that the body of RFSS wasn´t him, it was just a look alike and there is someone else buried in that grave on the Lüneburger Heide, and that the RFSS was the secret advicer to Pinochet during his time as Chiles president. What and see soon it will apear on some site that "that was how it was, RFSS lived secretly after the war in Chile". With this kind of info you must be real certain and show the evidence before you make such statement.
"MY" evidence is the link from this forum, and the copy of the 4 th (Queens own) Hussars British army wardiary. published on the net (BTW).
And then common sence.
Best reg.
Georg
How do you know that ht ebody is gone? I have located the area where body was buried in 1945, and I have even found the man who owns the land where it is buried, I will write and ask him a little bit about this matter. The document from the link I posted is an official Autrian Gov. Doc. and it states that he is still buried there, not that he has been removed.
Abut your other claims in your last post, "Globos" was captured by the English not the US, and what I know wasn´t the UK Gov so keen to capture Germans for their own benefit, that was more the US and the Russians, but when they captured one for their skills there was most sciencetists or if they had valuable info about a certain thing, like the US wanted someone who had great knowledge about the Russians (Gehlen as example). What they would use Globo which only real knowledge was a an administrative massmurder and a little knowledge how to trace and fight partisans.
About the graves: ys every one has a grave and so Globos, you claim that hte RFSS has a grave: (OK he is buried) but no one knows the exact location, only the two UK soldiers who buried him knows it. And if you call Lüneburger Heide as an exact location, you should visit that area and you would see how big it´s. Other who doesn´t have a grave is so many that I can´t count them, but the best example is all of them hanged after the first trial at IMT: (Göring, Streicher, Ribbentrop etc).
Why they didn´t take i picture from right angle at Globos is to me unknown, but i think that Globos wasn´t the main subect on the photo which is published, more likely is that Lerch, Höffle etc. is the main subject on the photo. And when Globos was dead he wasn´t interessting for them. I think that he just was a dead warcriminal in their point of view. Bu thten I think there exist more photos of him, this is jsut the only known one, we have the dead body of RFSS as an example, it still come photos taken on his body by other but not official ones.
About if we are friendly or not: You got a coupleof polite questions where you had gotten your conclusions from, but then you didn´t answer and if you give such claims historians want to know the source, if not! Your conclusions isn´t worth more then what is under my shoe after a long walk.
the kind of conclusions that you provided is like I would tell all that I had evidence that the body of RFSS wasn´t him, it was just a look alike and there is someone else buried in that grave on the Lüneburger Heide, and that the RFSS was the secret advicer to Pinochet during his time as Chiles president. What and see soon it will apear on some site that "that was how it was, RFSS lived secretly after the war in Chile". With this kind of info you must be real certain and show the evidence before you make such statement.
"MY" evidence is the link from this forum, and the copy of the 4 th (Queens own) Hussars British army wardiary. published on the net (BTW).
And then common sence.
Best reg.
Georg
Eichmann, you say in your post « I’m not going to go into everything here on this site »… And that’s exactly the problem. Why not ? If there was ever a place to go deep into things concerning the SS, this site is precisely it ; there’s a good many learned people and researchers here. Why not compare your data with theirs, for the sake of seeking the truth, instead of just creating unbacked polemics ?
You also say « If ANYONE of you guys would have been the one in charge of taking a photo to prove the death of Globocnik, wouldnt you have taken it from an angle where you can actually see the face of the deceased? I would have ! ». This also proves how little research you have made on the subject : Major Alexander Ramsay (N° 6 Special Force Staff Section, attached to 5 Corps (8th Army) took several pictures of the event, including a close-up of Globocnik’s face which leaves no doubt at all as to his identity. This photograph was published several years ago and a good many researchers know about it. All you have to do is inquire via the Imperial War Museum Archives to have a look at it.
The Gitta Sereny picture I sent, and that you so offhandedly dismiss as unconvincing is just the best known of these pictures, and the most widely circulated because it showed Globocnik, Höfle, Michalsen, and Lerch all in the same frame. If it didn’t happen, as you seem adamantly convinced, do you suppose they thought it fun to pose for a ‘fake suicide’ pic so as to mount some crypto-conspiracy to hide… what ? That Globocnik survived and was whisked away by some Allied secret service, or as a mass-murder counselor in some place like Syria ? Or maybe he finally caught up with Irmgard Rickheim, his long lost love, and both of them are cooling it in some exotic beach resort with pals Müller, Bormann, Gerstein and a few others ?
This IS a friendly website, and no one has been rude with you. It is you that disrespects the other members by treating them like cretins with your use of phony arguments. Pohl, Höss etc… were publicly tried, officially executed, and officially buried. Stangl died in prison from a heart failure while waiting for his Appeal motion and was officially buried (are we to believe that ?), Eichmann was hung in Israel but was cremated and his ashes scattered in international waters… no grave (are we to believe this as well ?). As for « the RFSS himself ! » there’s no known grave that I ever heard of. In fact, if any of our learned friends could inform me to the contrary I would be very interested. The only pic I know of is of a group of UK veterans in civilian clothes posing, a few years after the war on the spot where they allegedly buried Himmler. There are of course the pictures of Himmler lying dead, half covered with a blanket. I guess he was just sleeping there because there was no room anywhere else, and the British decided to shoot a few pics before he woke up and cook-up a suicide theory before they whisked him off to the MI6.
And now, 2 simple question you could answer, seeing you brought them up…
« Im not gonna try to convince you any further (yet), but in conclusion of this post :
« A: The Americans wanted him. » - How do you know, and for what reason ?
« B: Those testimonies are not worth the paper theyre written on. Think about who gave them. » - Well now, that’s a rather callous thing to say. Why are they unworthy of trust ? What are we exactly supposed to « think about who gave them » ? And on what grounds ?
I’m not at all convinced that you didn’t mean any of this. I think you thoughtlessly put yourself into a fix that you can’t pull out of because of reasoning based on a particular frame of mind instead of objective assessment of the (scant) available evidence.
Eddy Marz
You also say « If ANYONE of you guys would have been the one in charge of taking a photo to prove the death of Globocnik, wouldnt you have taken it from an angle where you can actually see the face of the deceased? I would have ! ». This also proves how little research you have made on the subject : Major Alexander Ramsay (N° 6 Special Force Staff Section, attached to 5 Corps (8th Army) took several pictures of the event, including a close-up of Globocnik’s face which leaves no doubt at all as to his identity. This photograph was published several years ago and a good many researchers know about it. All you have to do is inquire via the Imperial War Museum Archives to have a look at it.
The Gitta Sereny picture I sent, and that you so offhandedly dismiss as unconvincing is just the best known of these pictures, and the most widely circulated because it showed Globocnik, Höfle, Michalsen, and Lerch all in the same frame. If it didn’t happen, as you seem adamantly convinced, do you suppose they thought it fun to pose for a ‘fake suicide’ pic so as to mount some crypto-conspiracy to hide… what ? That Globocnik survived and was whisked away by some Allied secret service, or as a mass-murder counselor in some place like Syria ? Or maybe he finally caught up with Irmgard Rickheim, his long lost love, and both of them are cooling it in some exotic beach resort with pals Müller, Bormann, Gerstein and a few others ?
This IS a friendly website, and no one has been rude with you. It is you that disrespects the other members by treating them like cretins with your use of phony arguments. Pohl, Höss etc… were publicly tried, officially executed, and officially buried. Stangl died in prison from a heart failure while waiting for his Appeal motion and was officially buried (are we to believe that ?), Eichmann was hung in Israel but was cremated and his ashes scattered in international waters… no grave (are we to believe this as well ?). As for « the RFSS himself ! » there’s no known grave that I ever heard of. In fact, if any of our learned friends could inform me to the contrary I would be very interested. The only pic I know of is of a group of UK veterans in civilian clothes posing, a few years after the war on the spot where they allegedly buried Himmler. There are of course the pictures of Himmler lying dead, half covered with a blanket. I guess he was just sleeping there because there was no room anywhere else, and the British decided to shoot a few pics before he woke up and cook-up a suicide theory before they whisked him off to the MI6.
And now, 2 simple question you could answer, seeing you brought them up…
« Im not gonna try to convince you any further (yet), but in conclusion of this post :
« A: The Americans wanted him. » - How do you know, and for what reason ?
« B: Those testimonies are not worth the paper theyre written on. Think about who gave them. » - Well now, that’s a rather callous thing to say. Why are they unworthy of trust ? What are we exactly supposed to « think about who gave them » ? And on what grounds ?
I’m not at all convinced that you didn’t mean any of this. I think you thoughtlessly put yourself into a fix that you can’t pull out of because of reasoning based on a particular frame of mind instead of objective assessment of the (scant) available evidence.
Eddy Marz
- von Putzbrunn
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Eddy
A: I havent said anything about Himmler not being dead! ! !
B: Do you believe the Höss testimony as well?
C: I didnt bring anything up! I asked a simple question and you guys are tearing my head off! Do you believe in god? I dont! Are you gonna put me against the wall about that too? I believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe.
Georg: Are you actually saying that they did not bother to remove the body when the built a new house on the site but simply built the building over it? He must have been burried really deep then. Or did I misunderstand you?
A: I havent said anything about Himmler not being dead! ! !
B: Do you believe the Höss testimony as well?
C: I didnt bring anything up! I asked a simple question and you guys are tearing my head off! Do you believe in god? I dont! Are you gonna put me against the wall about that too? I believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe.
Georg: Are you actually saying that they did not bother to remove the body when the built a new house on the site but simply built the building over it? He must have been burried really deep then. Or did I misunderstand you?
- von Putzbrunn
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2007, 17:59
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- K.Kocjancic
- Member
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- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
I am sorry but I haven´t got any date, I only have what is seen in the link I posted.Eichmann wrote:Georg, when is that official Austrian gov. doc. dated?
But every thing in that document is correct, I have checked carefully through many suorces, and every thing they say in the doc is correct. Name, roads etc.
Best reg.
Georg
Ps. about RFSS it was only a comparing, nothing about what you have written