Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

Discussions on all aspects of the SS and Polizei. Hosted by Andrey.
User avatar
Ignacio
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 10 Sep 2006, 20:14
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#16

Post by Ignacio » 04 Apr 2008, 18:57

Marc

You are right regarding the SS-Stu.Gesch.Abt. 5 being formed in Croatia under Mühlenkamp's overall command. In early December 1943, when its last elements were moved, the so-called "Verband Mühlenkamp" in Agram was holding command over SS-Pz.Rgt. 5, SS-Pz.Abt. "Hermann von Salza" and Korps Tiger Abteilung 103. On 7.12.43 the SS-FHA ordered the transfer of Wiking's Panther Abteilung to Falaise (France) and of s.Pz.Abt. 103 to Heerde B. Odesroek! (Oldebroek?) (Holland), while SS-Pz.Abt. 11 stayed a few more days in Agram before being sent to the Front.

Ignacio

RolandP
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 01:00
Location: Germany

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#17

Post by RolandP » 22 Oct 2008, 21:53

Hello everybody,
in the files of Paul Massel, it is mentioned, that he was transferred to the 1.SS-Brigade , SS-Inf.Rgt 8, with effect from October 5th 1942 to led “a battalion” of this regiment. Does anybody have an idea, which battalion this was … I couldn’t find it out for myself. I guess it might be the battalion of SS-Obersturmbannführer Michael Lippert (mentioned in the Führerliste of John P. Moore with III./SS-IR 10 ????) who fell ill in September/October 1942, but I couldn’t confirm Lippert in the SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 as well? :?

Massell was mentioned as “regimental leader” from December 12th 1942 until the transfer to SS-StuGeschAbt 5. This regiment, he lead, seems to be the SS-Inf.Rgt 8, so he seems to have replaced SS-Standartenführer Dörffler-Schuband with effect from December 24 1942? It would be nice, if somebody could confirm this …??? :?

Dear Phil Nix,
You mentioned Paul Geissler as Ib of the SS-Totenkopfdivision until June 20 1942.
Might it be possible, that he was the first Ia of the 1.SS-Brigade from May 1st until May 25th 1941 being transferred with Demelhuber to the SS-battle group “Nord” to replace the staff of this unit? Geissler seems to be replaced there again with effect from August 1st 1941, but SS-Sturmbannführer Ruoff got his order to return to the SS-Division “Nord” as Ia after August 6th 1941 …? Do you have any further information? :?

Regards yours Roland


User avatar
Ignacio
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 10 Sep 2006, 20:14
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#18

Post by Ignacio » 24 Oct 2008, 11:48

Roland

Paul Geisler served as Ib of the SS-T.Div. until 1.08.40, when he was transferred to the JKS Tölz. There he served as Kommandeur of Lehrgruppe A in the Vollehrgang 40/41 that lasted from 1.09.40 to 10.04.41.
On 20.04.41 he was reassigned to the Befehlshaber der Waffen-SS Südost as Ia, although shortly after the command was redesignated as the 1.SS-Brigade (so he was the first Ia of the Brigade).
Effective 25.05.41 he was reassigend from the 1.SS-Brigade to the Kampfgruppe Nord, as Ia too, exchanging his post with Hastuf. Joachim Ruoff. Geisler reached Nord's command post in Ranua on 15.06.41.
With effect 9.08.41 Geisler was relieved of his Ia post in Nord and reassigned as Führer zbV. in the Kommandoamt der Waffen-SS (SS-FHA). Nevertheless, his successor (Stubaf. Joachim Ruoff anew) did not reach the divisional command post in Finland until 19.08.41, when he took over formally the post from Geisler. Three days later Geisler returned to Germany.

Regarding the Paul Massell question, it is not an easy one. Stubaf. Heinrich Heinke was commander of the I./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 from August 1941 to late 1943, and Stubaf. Harry Wiedemann was assigned as commander of the II./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 in late October 1942. Probably Massell was assigned to rebuild the III.Bataillon that had been dissolved due to losses months ago, although eventually this battalion was not rebuilt until early 1944.
So perhaps Massell really assumed command of the III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 10, as you suppose.

With regards to his regimental command, I believe December 12 is a mistake for November 12. On that day (12.November.42), Staf. Karl Herrmann (Kdr. SS-Inf.Rgt. 10) assumed the temporary command of the 1.SS-Inf.Brigade, replacing Brif. von Treuenfeld. As by then Massell was the senior ranked battalion commander for both Brigade regiments, my hypothesis is that he was the temporary replacement for Herrmann as regimental commander SS-Inf.Rgt. 10 from that day, later returning to his battalion command until succeeding Staf. Dörffler-Schuband in late December 1942 as commander of SS-Inf.Rgt. 8. It would be nice if somebody could clarify these facts.

Ignacio

RolandP
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 01:00
Location: Germany

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#19

Post by RolandP » 24 Oct 2008, 22:45

Dear Ignacio,

big thanks for your answer concerning my questions concerning both “Pauls”, Geißler and Massel.

The information about Paul Geißler, being commander of Lehrgruppe A at Tölz in 1940/1941 was unknown to me, too. But your answer confirmed Geißler as Ia of 1.SS-Brigade and later SS-battle group/Division Nord, that is of great interest!!!

Concerning Paul Massell, I didn´t come to a final solution. I can confirm Heinrich Heinke as commander of I. battalion SS-Inf.Rgt 8 from August 20th 1941 until October 18th 1943 (with some gaps). Commander of the II. Battalion SS-Inf.Rgt 8 was SS-Hauptsturmführer Herbert Gilhofer, from January 30th 1942 until September 1942, than wounded, he was replaced by SS-Sturmbannführer Harry Wiedemann from Oktober 27th 1942, with effect from November 20th 1942, Gilhofer was back, but again seriously wounded in January 1943 in the Welikije-Luki – area. For a short time, Hauptsturmführer Paul Liebermann lead the battalion until SS-Sturmbannführer Harry Wiedemann took over again after Febuary 11th 1943 (?).

Concerning the III. Battalion SS-Inf.Rgt 8, there are more gaps then in the command rooster of the other units of the regiment. I have SS-Hauptsturmführer Alfons Zeidler in command until Febuary 1942, then a gap until September 1942, when SS-Obersturmbannführer Michael Lippert seems to have lead this battalion until Oktober 1942, leaving ill. This seems to be the time period, that SS-Sturmbannführer Paul Massel took over, until December 1942, when Dörffler-Schuband left the SS-IR 8 for leading the SS-battle group Fegelein in South Russia.
Massel was mentioned as regimental commander of SS-IR 8 by a former adjutant of II. Battalion SS-IR 8 in action in the Welikije-Luki – Lowat bridgehead Bekesi – Itachino.
In March 1943, SS-Sturmbannführer August-Wilhelm Trabandt was appointed leader of the regiment and Massell left for StuGesch.Abt. Wiking.

Concerning SS-IR 10, I have SS-Standartenführer Karl Herrmann as commander with effect from January 1st 1942 until January 28th 1943, with some gaps, while leading the brigade.
So from November 27th 1942, when von Treuenfeld left the unit (you mentioned November 12th 1942, what was your source?) until December 1st 1942, when von dem Bach took over.
With effect from January 29th 1943, SS-Standartenführer Heinz Bertling was appointed as commander of SS-Inf.Rgt 10, but seems to have arrived there in Febuary 1943, so I have n o regimental leader in the time period mentioned above, it seems that one of the SS-Sturmbannführer in this regiment take over for this short time, but in my files, no special name was mentioned.
I. Bataillon was lead by SS-Sturmbannführer Dietrichs, later SS-Hauptsturmführer Hörnicke, II. Bataillon seems to been lead by SS-Sturmbannführer Ernst Schäfer (not sure) and the III. Bataillon was lead by SS-Sturmbannführer Paul Kummer, but I´m not sure about that, too, because I have no date because of his transfer to the SS-Kav.Rgt 17.

So it would be nice to read, as you wrote before, if somebody could clarify this point of interest!! :wink:

With all the best yours Roland

User avatar
Ignacio
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 10 Sep 2006, 20:14
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#20

Post by Ignacio » 25 Oct 2008, 20:02

Roland

As Commander of II./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8, Stubaf. Wiedemann was wounded in December 1942, being succeeded by Gilhofer, then Liebermann until Wiedemann returned.
III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 was led by Hastuf. Alfons Zeitler until August 1942, when it was dissolved and not rebuilt until 1944.
Staf. Karl Herrmann assumed temporary command (vertr. Führung) of the 1.SS-Inf.Brigade on 12.11.42 according to the Tätigkeitbericht of the Kdo.Stab RFSS for the second half of November 1942. On 28.11.42 temporary command of the Brigade was given to Obergruf. Erich von dem Bach (perhaps he assumed effective command on 1.12.42 as you say).

Staf. Heinz Bertling attended a regiment commanders course from 1.02.43 to 20.02.43, but I don´t know who assumed command of SS-Inf.Rgt. 10 until his arrival.
As Commander of the I./SS-Inf.Rgt. 10 Hastuf. Dieterichs was wounded in late December 1942, when replaced by Hastuf. Werner Hörnicke. Dieterichs did not return to the regiment until late April 1943, having being promoted to Stubaf. on 30.01.43.
On 8.05.42 the staff of the II./SS-Inf.Rgt.10 (under Stubaf. Kurt Kummer) was detached from the regiment and sent to Bobruisk as Feldrekrutendepot to train recruits, the battalion not being rebuilt within the regiment until 1944.
And in late 1942 the III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 10 was being led by Hastuf. Ernst Schäfer (not promoted to Stubaf. until 21.06.43).
So we don´t have a clear candidate to temporary regimental commander in February 1943!

Regards

Ignacio

RolandP
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 01:00
Location: Germany

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#21

Post by RolandP » 01 Nov 2008, 11:18

Dear Ignacio,
Sorry for answering so late. Thanks for your interesting post and the valuable information!
iap26 wrote: …. III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 was led by Hastuf. Alfons Zeitler until August 1942, when it was dissolved and not rebuilt until 1944….
I haven´t recognized that fact until now, I knew, that in 1943, there were only two battalions in SS-Regiment 8, but I missed to find out, why!!!

Really astonishing is this information
iap26 wrote: … On 8.05.42 the staff of the II./SS-Inf.Rgt.10 (under Stubaf. Kurt Kummer) was detached from the regiment and sent to Bobruisk as Feldrekrutendepot to train recruits, the battalion not being rebuilt within the regiment until 1944…
So the II./SS-IR 10 was the nucleus of the so called Feldrekruten-Depot Bobruisk!!! Was Stubaf. Kummer the first commander of this Depot unit? I had some information about the formation in 1942 and the action of the battalions in bandit hunter operations in the same year from Munoz, Forgotten legions, but couldn´t find any further information about this units.

So SS-IR 10 had only two battalions after the reformation of the 1.SS-Brigade in Summer 1942 as well!!!

You are the “specialist” of the 1.SS-Brigade, I suppose … This is good to know!!!! :D

With all the best
Yours Roland

User avatar
Ignacio
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 10 Sep 2006, 20:14
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#22

Post by Ignacio » 02 Nov 2008, 21:25

Roland

I believe this Feldrekrutendepot in Bobruisk was a temporary facility to train recruits for the 1.SS-Brigade. 2.000 recruits were sent to Bobruisk on 19.5.42, together with 24 NCOs and 244 men from the Brigade recovering from wounds or illness.
But it seems in early July 1942 the recruits were sent to the Brigade, and the fact that in late August 1942 Kummer was leading the III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 10 (probably he had succeeded Paul Kümmel in July) makes me think that Kummer rejoined the Brigade with the recruits, perhaps the Depot was then dissolved.

Regarding the III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8, I was mistaken, as I now believe it was dissolved much earlier that August 1942, most probably in late January 1942, after its deputy Kdr. Hastuf. von Benthen was KIA and the remnants of the battalion joined the I./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 (Heinke) as Kompanie Bergmann (under Ostuf. Rudolf Bergmann). For sure, III./SS-Inf.Rgt 8 was not listed by mid April 1942.

Alfons Zeitler was formally appointed as Kdr. III./SS-Inf.Rgt. 8 on 6.01.42, but when he reached the 1.SS-Brigade initially he was assigned to the Brigade staff and assumed the command of a Battle Group on 20.01.42 (still leading it in mid March 1942), then he should serve elsewhere (for example, in June/July 1942 he was deputising for Heinke as Kdr. of the I.Battalion)

Regards

Ignacio

RolandP
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 01:00
Location: Germany

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#23

Post by RolandP » 03 Nov 2008, 00:40

Dear Ignacio,
I have to thank for the detailed information, I remember, that in one document in the John P.Moore-Disks, Führerliste der Waffen-SS, Ernst Schäfer was mentioned as a bataillon commander of a recruit bataillon in early 1942 as well ... I have to look for it later .... 8-)

The front line action of the 1.SS-Brigade in the Winter 1941/42 is a little bit complicated, even the command rooster changed and I have no detailed information about this time period concerning that fact. v.Benthen (chief of 12./SS-IR 8)was killed, I know that from parts of the war diary of the 9.Pz.Div., the rest (company Bergmann) was part of the battle group Heinke (I./SS-I.R. 8) for a time .... :wink:

I think, we should "talk private" about the 1.SS-Brigade as well or change to the thread "Let´s built 1.SS-Inf. Brigade" :wink:

Regards yours Roland

JW.Bode
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 Aug 2007, 12:08
Location: Breda

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#24

Post by JW.Bode » 02 Dec 2008, 14:40

Hello,

Here is a photo of Stubaf. Massell during an EK2 ceremony in Zhitomir from my collection. Dated 18-04-42. I have 3 more from the ceremony, but as I would like to keep these photo's 'low profile', I won't post them here in the forum. You always can send a PM.

MvG,

J.W.L. B.
Attachments
SS_coloring_project2 1.jpg
SS_coloring_project2 1.jpg (100.92 KiB) Viewed 2795 times

yoricks
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 10 Feb 2004, 12:57
Location: Israel

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#25

Post by yoricks » 23 Jan 2009, 16:15

Is this the same Muller as:

Helmut Müller, "Bericht über die Verhältnisse in Lublin", October 15, 1941, BA BDC

and who may have served in Lviv in 42 or 43 (he was a hpsf at the time)?

if not does anyone have any information about this other Muller?

Thanks

harmel
Member
Posts: 3621
Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 21:18
Location: leicestershire UK

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#26

Post by harmel » 24 Jan 2009, 17:35

Thanks J W for showing Massell very nice of you to post it.
Harmel 8O

Charles Trang
Member
Posts: 882
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 18:49
Location: France

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#27

Post by Charles Trang » 14 May 2014, 17:40

A stabs-Batterie was formed for SS-StuG.Abt.5. It was led by SS-Ostuf. Freudenthal in November 1943. The latter went on to lead Stabs-Bttr./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt.11 a few months later.

Blanusa
Member
Posts: 301
Joined: 18 Sep 2003, 17:44
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#28

Post by Blanusa » 18 Aug 2014, 20:22

Hello,

1.) Regarding Paul Massell and his command of SS-Stug.Abt.5:

As it is stated, SS-Sturmbannführer a.D. Paul Massell was transferred to and tasked with the command of SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteiling 5 on 15.04.1943 (Versetzung u.m.F.d. Sturm.-Gesch.-Abt./SS-Pz.Gr.Div."Wiking" beuftragt). Not having previous experience with Panzer or Sturmartillerie, Paul was sent away short of a full month later, in order to attend the 9.Abteilungsführer-Lehrgang at the Schule für Schnelle Truppen in Paris, which lasted from 10.05.1943 to 12.06.1943. Interestingly one of his classmates here was SS-Sturmbannführer a.D. Rudolf Saalbach. It stands to reason that Paul was then actually sent back to his SS-Stug.Abt.5, only to again be sent away a little over a month later, when he was commanded to the Sturmartillerie-Schule in Juterbog and remained there from 26.07.1943 until 28.08.1943. It would appear that Paul then actually travelled to Croatia. This assumption is based solely on the fact that SS-Obersturmbannführer Rudolf Mühlenkamp wrote a positive Beurteilung on 07.09.1943 about Paul's activities with the unit.
In just a little over a month later, on 14.10.1943, Paul's command of SS-Stug.Abt.5 had come to an end and he was sent away to assume command of the SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.10 "Westland".

In spite of the training he had received during 1943, Paul Massell was not put in charge of any sort of armoured units after this. Does anyone know why?


2.) Regarding the SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 5 during 1943 in Croatia:

On 29.08.1943 the 11.SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div."Nordland" filed an Ist-stärke report, that tells us that the SS-Pz.Rgt.11 had a total strength of 1731 men. The same day, on 29.08.1943, the III.(germ.)SS-Pz.Korps reported that 1267 men from the SS-Pz.Rgt.11, including the SS-Pz.Stu.Abt.5, had arrived at Zagreb, Croatia. On 01.09.1943 it was reported that the remaining 1174 men from SS-Pz.Rgt.11 had arrived as well.
This tells us that (1267 + 1174 = 2441 - 1731 =) 710 men belonged to this SS-Pz.Stu.Abt.5. I believe that this number actually indicates the number of men of the combined SS-Pz.Rgt.5, II./SS-Pz.Rgt.5 and SS-Stug.Abt.5.

Meanwhile an order was issued by the III.(germ.)SS-Pz.Korps on 01.09.1943, which gave instructions as to which units were going to be posted to what area of responsibility in Croatia.
Sicherungsbereich B
Kommandeur SS Ostubaf. Mühlenkamp
Truppe: Rgt.Stab und Rgt.Einh. SS Pz.Rgt.5
  • II./SS Pz.Rgt.5
    Stu.Art.Abt.5
This "Sicherungsbereich B" was, from what I can gather, the city of Karlovac, Croatia, as this is where the units under Mühlenkamp would be posted on 09.09.1943.

The only action of SS-Stug.Abt.5 in Croatia that I have been able to find, is from 23.10.1943, when an Eingreifs-Kompanie was sent to the village Klinča Sela. Here they would set up blocking positions in order to prevent the partisans from interfering with the operations of Heeresgruppe B in the area of Slovenia. It would appear that this is all they did this day, as there are no follow up notations or reports of any engagements with partisan units in that general area.

At least since the beginning of October 1943 there had been talk, as per several document, of either incorporating SS-Stug.Abt.5 in to the SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Brig."Nederland", which could occur at about mid-November, or establishing a new SS-Stug.Abt. for the brigade, which would take to at least the end of December 1943 to complete.
The decision was taken in favour of the first choice and an order was issued. With effect on 23.11.1943 the SS-Stug.Abt.5 was transferred to the SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Brig "Nederland" and at the same time renamed s.SS-Pz.Jg.Abt.54. However, one of its batteries was detached and would only temporarily be subordinated to the brigade.
The order reads:
1.) Die bisherige SS Sturm-Geschütz-Abtlg. 5 wird mit Wirkung vom 23.11.1943 in die Brigade personell und materiell überfürt und in diese als s.Pz.Jg.Abtlg.54 eingegliedert.

2.) Die Führung der Abteilung übernimmt der SS-Stubaf. Schock

3.) Die 1.Batterie (Borbeck) scheidet aus der Abteilung und wird der Brigade unmittelbar unterstellt, um nach Herstellung der Feldverwendungsfähigkeit der SS Pz.Gren.Div. "Wiking" zugefürt zu werden.
Nähere Anweisungen über Ausbildung, Ausrüstung usw. ergehen an den Batterie-Chef direkt.
Wirtschaftlich verbleit die Batterie zunächst bei der s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 54. Mit der Dienstaufsicht wird der SS-Stubaf. Schock Beauftragt.
And with that the SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 5 had ceased to exist.

3.) Regarding SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung Nederland, and later SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 14:

On 14.07.1943 an order was issued by III.(germ.)SS-Pz.Korps, stating that with effect on 01.08.1943 the SS-Stug.Abt.Nederland be created, under the leadership of SS-Sturmbannführer Knud Schock. Sometime along the way the unit was renamed SS-Stug.Abt.14, and on 28.11.1943 another order was issued, stating that with effect on 30.11.1943 the SS-Stug.Abt.14 was to be disbanded. The order reads:
1.) Die bisherige Sturm-Geschütz-Abteilung 14 wird mit Wirkung vom 30.11.1943 aufgelöst.

2.) Stab 1, und 2. Battr. werden folgendermassen in die Brigade eingegliedert.
Batterie v.d.Kuyl (2.Bttr.) wird materiell und personell zur s.Pz.Jg.Abtlg.54 versetzt.
Batterie Diener (1.Battr.) wird materiell und personell zur verst.Aufkl.Kp. der Brigade versetz.

Hopefully this, at the very least in part, is helpful.

Best regards
Blanusa

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#29

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Nov 2018, 14:07

Excellent post!

Jan-Hendrik

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 8002
Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 20:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: Wiking officers Müller, Geissler, Massell and Nedderhof

#30

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 03 May 2019, 19:31

A change of command ceremony for the division's III. Bataillon, Germania Regiment on 20 May 1944. The entire battalion is present in a U-shaped formation only partially visible in this photograph taken on the football field at the Lublin army barracks in Poland. The ceremony is seconds away from starting and waiting in the wings at stage right to begin the transfer before their men are three commanding officers- The center officer is Sturmbannführer Hans Dorr, commander of the Germania Regiment. On the left is Franz Hack, the out-going battalion commander who was moving up to take command of Wiking’s Westland Regiment. On the right is Obersturmbannführer Paul Massel, the new commander of III. Bataillon, having been moved over from elsewhere within the Wiking Division. Starting with Dorr, each of the officers in turn addressed the men of the III.Bataillon, who were fresh off from participating in the battles for the relief of the surrounded city of Kowel.
Hi, was Paul Massel/Massell really hold a command of III.Bataillon/ SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 9 "Germania" on 20 May 1944? It's a bit confusing because that's meant he got a lower assignment than before (Regimentskommandeur)..

Source: https://reibert.info/threads/5-ja-tanko ... 89/page-31
Attachments
A change of command ceremony for the division's III. Bataillon, Germania Regiment on 20 May 1944.jpg

Post Reply

Return to “The Phil Nix SS & Polizei section”