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Max Simon

Discussions on all aspects of the SS and Polizei.
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Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 02 Mar 2008 20:22

When Theodor Eicke was KIA Feb 26 1943 most sources say that he was succeeded first by
Hermann Priess (Feb 26 1943 - Apr 27 1943) and then by
Heinz Lammerding (Apr 27 1943 - May 15 1943) and then by
Max Simon (May 15 1943 - Oct 22 1943).
Max Simon was the CO of Totenkopf Regiment up to Eicke's death date and succeeded by
Otto Baum (Feb 26 1943 - Aug 21 1943).

What did Max Simon do between 26 Feb 1943 - May 15 1943?
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Re: Max Simon

Postby Dieter Zinke on 03 Mar 2008 12:16

Pena V wrote:What did Max Simon do between 26 Feb 1943 - May 15 1943?

Kommandeur der SS-Panzergrenadier-Division “Totenkopf“
since April illness/wounded and hospitalized

Lammerding:
27.04.1943 - 01.05.1943 vertretungsweise beauftragt mit der Führung der SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division ”Totenkopf”
(see also "Der Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei", vol. 3, by Andreas Schulz and myself, pages 1 - 11)

Priess:
01.05.1943 / 10.10.1943 - 20.07.1944 m.d.F.b. resp. Kommandeur
illness since June 1944


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Re: Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 03 Mar 2008 20:28

Thanks Dieter,

Your answer is something that I both expected and feared. Expected because it's too much of an incident that a divisional commander is KIA and on the same day one of his regimental commanders just "disappears".

Why was I feared then? How is it possible that 4 sane sources(Axis History Forum, Feldgrau, Genealogie, Lexikon der Wehrmacht) give the same false dates? I know that sometimes there are contradicting dates but this time it seems that these 4 sources have copied from each other instead of using primary sources!

Regards,

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Jan-Hendrik on 03 Mar 2008 21:40

but this time it seems that these 4 sources have copied from each other instead of using primary sources!


In short words:

Welcome to the show :D :D

It is the usual way in our times to take infos from other sites and to copy them without rechecking, thats why on the top of the forum there is a section only for factbook corrections :wink:

And there is still a lot to do! Let's do it, gentlemen :P

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 03 Mar 2008 22:52

Jan-Hendrik,

You are absolutely right! So far I have mailed three topics to Factbook corrections section of which I was quite sure. However, this topic was so confusing that I did not have the nerve to mail it there.

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Giorgio on 06 Mar 2008 11:36

Hello,
Mark C. Yerger in "Waffen-SS Commanders" -Vol. II, page 244, wrote: "When Theodor Heicke was killed, Max Simon assumed command of the SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Totenkopf" on 26th February 1943. He led the Division on paper until officially succeeded by SS-Obergruppenführer Herman Priess on October 10,1943, but actually he left in early April due to illness. After recovering and rest, he became the first Commander of the new 16.SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division Reichsführer-SS".
Best regards,
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Re: Max Simon

Postby Charles Trang on 06 Mar 2008 14:45

Mark Yerger is absolutely right. In the SS-Pz.Korps Kriegstagebuch, it is noted that Max Simon was named at the head of the division during the night of 26-27 February following Eicke's death. It is clearly written there and stops any further discussion on this matter.
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Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 06 Mar 2008 16:05

Thank you Giorgio and Charles Trang!

As I said the end result was both what I expected and feared. My understanding of Totenkopf commanders after Eicke is now as follows:
26 Feb 43 - ?? Apr 43 Max Simon ->illness/wounded and hospitalized
27 Apr 43 - 01 May 43 Heinz Lammerding -> Chef des Stabes II SS-Panzerkorps
01 May 43 - 21 Jun 44 Herman Priess -> illness
21 Jun 44 - 08 May 45 Helmuth Becker
However, some sources say that Priess was succeeded by Karl Ullrich who held the command 20 Jun 44 - 13 Jul 44 and Becker succeeded Ullrich. Any comments on that?

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Giorgio on 09 Mar 2008 23:09

Hi, Pena V
I'd try and hope to make myself useful: that's my command-roster of TK after Heicke was KIA in Orelka on 26 February 1943.

a) SS-Oberführer Max Simon: 27 February 1943-10 October 1943. He led the division on paper until officially succeeded by SS-Obergruppenführer Herman Priess on 10 October 1943, but actually he left in early April due to illness.

b) SS-Obergruppenführer & temporary Commander Herman Priess: 26 February-27 April 1943.

c) SS-Gruppenführer & Commander (m.d.F.b) Heinz Lammerding: 27 April-01 or 15 May 1943, replacing Max Simon.

d) SS-Oberführer & Commander (m.d.F.b) Herman Priess: 01 or 15 May 1943-10 or 22 October 1943, replacing Max Simon.

e) SS-Oberführer/SS Brigadeführer & Commander Herman Priess: 10 or 22 October 1943-(20 or 21 June 1944).On leave during March 1944 for a week.

f) SS-Standartenführer & Temporary Commander Otto Baum replacing Hermann Priess (on leave): during March 1944 for a week.

g) SS-Obersturmbannführer Karl Adolf Ullrich: 20 June-13 July 1944 as temporary Commander briefly succeding the absent Priess due illness. (SOURCE: Mark C. Yerger, Waffen-SS Commanders , vol. II, page 164 and page 306).

h) SS-Brigadeführer Hellmuth Becker: officially 12 or 13 July 1944-08 May 1945.

Greetings,
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Re: Max Simon

Postby Max Williams on 10 Mar 2008 08:44

Priess was never SS-Obergruppenführer and Lammerding was not a SS-Gruppenführer.
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Re: Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 10 Mar 2008 10:12

You have done a detailed job Giorgio. Thank you for that. It seems that the picture is clearer if we separete two different lines of command: The official (27 Feb 1943 - Max Simon -10 Oct 1943 - Herman Priess - 20 Jun 1944 - Karl Ullrich - 13 Jul 1944 - Helmuth Becker 08 May 1945) and the actual (26 Feb 1943 - Herman Priess - 27 Apr 1943 - Heinz Lammerding - 01 May 1943 - Herman Priess (Otto Baum Mar 1944 for a week) - 20 Jun 1944 Karl Ullrich 13 Jul 1944 - Helmuth Becker 08 May 1945).

If there are two different dates available I have chosen the one which is more logical:
* 01 May 1943 is more logical than 15 May 1943 because Heinz Lammerding is shown as "in Vertretung Chef des Generalstabes der II SS Panzerkorps 2.5.43 - 31.7.43".
* 10 Oct 1943 is more logical than 22 Oct 1943 because that's when Max Simon's command ended.
* 20 Jun 1944 is more logical than 21 Jun 1944 because that's when Karl Ullrich's command started.
* 13 Jul 1944 is more logical than 12 Jul 1944 because that's when Karl Ullrich's command ended.

This brings us back to the original question: "What did Max Simon do?" If he was the official commander from 27 Feb 1943 until his illness in April 1943 (and beyond) why was Herman Priess the actual commander during the same period of time? :?

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Dieter Zinke on 10 Mar 2008 11:17

Pena V wrote:This brings us back to the original question: "What did Max Simon do?" If he was the official commander from 27 Feb 1943 until his illness in April 1943 (and beyond) why was Herman Priess the actual commander during the same period of time? :?

Pena V

Your question is already answered in my post above :wink:
.... and Priess was Kommandeur SS-Artillerie-Regiment 3 “Totenkopf“ until 30.04.1943

There is no changing that, but that' s just the way it is :)

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 10 Mar 2008 12:20

2 out of 2. Not bad. I mean that I guessed again that it's hard to explain why there must be a new divisional commander (Max Simon) who has just left his old regiment and in addition an actual commander (Herman Priess). So after all the combined efforts the list of actual commanders after Eicke looks like this:
26 Feb 1943 - 27? Apr 1943 Max Simon
27 Apr 1943 - 01 May 1943 Heinz Lammerding
01 May 1943 - 20 Jun 1944 Herman Priess (Otto Baum Mar 1944 for a week)
20 Jun 1944 - 13 Jul 1944 Karl Ullrich
13 Jul 1944 - 08 May 1945 Helmuth Becker
Thank you Dieter & Giorgio for your input and patience. :D

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Re: Max Simon

Postby Giorgio on 10 Mar 2008 17:44

Max Williams wrote:Priess was never SS-Obergruppenführer and Lammerding was not a SS-Gruppenführer.
Max.


Hi, Max Williams
you're absolutely right. I copied that wrong ranks from some old & wrong threads.
Lammerding was an SS-Standartenführer when he took temporarily over the SS-Panzergrenadier-Division “Totenkopf” from 27 April till 01 May 1943, (replacing Max Simon) and Priess was an SS-Oberführer.
Sorry, and thankyou.
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Re: Max Simon

Postby Pena V on 17 Nov 2010 21:46

I'm hijacking my own thread. Is that even possible? :lol: Since 2008 I have moved one step further. My question now is: When did Max Simon assume command of 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Reichsfuhrer-SS"?

I have 4 possible "candidates" for this date:
1. 03 Oct 1943 when the division was established.
2. 10 Oct 1943 when Max Simon's era as CO of "Totenkopf" officially ended.
3. 18 Oct 1943 when Karl Gesele moved from the command of Sturmbrigade "Reichsfuhrer-SS to command SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 35.
4. 22 Oct 1943 because Mark Yerger says so.
My theory is that Max Simon was named commander on 03 Oct or 10 Oct but for some reason his arrival to the division did not take place until 22 Oct. Does anyone know for sure?

Thanks in advance,

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