Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
According to Mr. Yerger's book Schmelzer has the Close Combat Clasp in Silver.
Yet according to a couple sites he has it in Gold.
Can I get a possitive answer?
Thanks in advance.
Yet according to a couple sites he has it in Gold.
Can I get a possitive answer?
Thanks in advance.
- Doktor Krollspell
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Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Hello Bob!
SS-Hauptsturmführer and ELT Heinrich Schmelzer did recieve the Nahkampfspange in Gold as of 06.12.1943 according to Florian Berger's "Ritterkreuzträger mit Nahkampfspange in Gold" (2004).
Regards,
Krollspell
SS-Hauptsturmführer and ELT Heinrich Schmelzer did recieve the Nahkampfspange in Gold as of 06.12.1943 according to Florian Berger's "Ritterkreuzträger mit Nahkampfspange in Gold" (2004).
Regards,
Krollspell
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Thanku!
Krollspell
Krollspell
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Krollspell
I went back to my Yerger German Cross in gold book and he has Schmelzer down as a bronz on that date.
Ive tried to contact Mr.Yerger but have not recieved a response as of yet.
I went back to my Yerger German Cross in gold book and he has Schmelzer down as a bronz on that date.
Ive tried to contact Mr.Yerger but have not recieved a response as of yet.
- Doktor Krollspell
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Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Hello again Bob!
Heinrich Schmelzer's Nahkampfspange in Gold with the award date of 06.12.1943 is also noted in Veit Scherzer's "Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945" (2005).
Regards,
Krollspell
Heinrich Schmelzer's Nahkampfspange in Gold with the award date of 06.12.1943 is also noted in Veit Scherzer's "Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945" (2005).
Regards,
Krollspell
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Thanku again!
Very unusual though,I did more searches and came across a Norwegian site that also claims he only recieved the silverCCC.
Very unusual though,I did more searches and came across a Norwegian site that also claims he only recieved the silverCCC.
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Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
On a Personalakten dated 5. Feb. 1944 (Source: John P. Moore’s “Führerliste der Waffen-SS”), it shows Schmelzer as having received, “Nahkampfspange III.Stufe - verl. 6.12.43.” (Gold)
Fred
Fred
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Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Hello Bob and all,
see the below result of the case we had in the ABR "awardholders/unit" sticky - stating that the interpretation of an NKiGold award is a mistake !
Even the original "Personalakten" document sometimes is tricky and is to read in a context.
The correct interpretation here is, if I'm correct, that in the early days of awarding the Close Combat Clasp (autumn 1943) the clerks occassionally confused the "I, II., III. Stufe". Meaning that the first Clasp to award, the Bronze one was designated officially "I. Stufe" which was wrongly noted down then as "III. Stufe". So here.
So, the DKiG award + date, given by Scherzer and Berger has to be regarded as wrong.
Therefore I go with the Yerger result here until the proof of the contrary.
regards, Bernd
see the below result of the case we had in the ABR "awardholders/unit" sticky - stating that the interpretation of an NKiGold award is a mistake !
This "manuscript Miller" result by my fellow Mod Michael Miller is based on the Yerger work.not counted:
Schmelzer, Heinrich, 06.12.1943 [?], SS-Hstuf., SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. "DR" [stated in various sources as NKiG recipient ; not correct, see below]
00.00.1944 Nahkampfspange II. Stufe (Silber)
06.12.1943 Nahkampfspange I. Stufe (Bronze) (His Ritterkreuz recommendation erroneously gives “Nahkampfspange III. Stufe”, however, by his own account, he did not receive that highest grade of the award) [manuscript Miller]
Even the original "Personalakten" document sometimes is tricky and is to read in a context.
The correct interpretation here is, if I'm correct, that in the early days of awarding the Close Combat Clasp (autumn 1943) the clerks occassionally confused the "I, II., III. Stufe". Meaning that the first Clasp to award, the Bronze one was designated officially "I. Stufe" which was wrongly noted down then as "III. Stufe". So here.
So, the DKiG award + date, given by Scherzer and Berger has to be regarded as wrong.
Therefore I go with the Yerger result here until the proof of the contrary.
regards, Bernd
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
That's strange. Manfred Dörr lists him as a NKiG holder based on the following Schmelzer's statement at IMT from 1946:not counted:
Schmelzer, Heinrich, 06.12.1943 [?], SS-Hstuf., SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. "DR" [stated in various sources as NKiG recipient ; not correct, see below]
00.00.1944 Nahkampfspange II. Stufe (Silber)
06.12.1943 Nahkampfspange I. Stufe (Bronze) (His Ritterkreuz recommendation erroneously gives “Nahkampfspange III. Stufe”, however, by his own account, he did not receive that highest grade of the award) [manuscript Miller]
"Ich gehörte als SS-Hauptsturmführer und Träger des Eichenlaubs zum Ritterkreuz, sowie Nahkampfspange in Gold bis zur Kapitulation der Waffen-SS an. [...]" (Dörr, 1996, p.60).
"Ich gehörte als SS-Hauptsturmführer und Träger des Eichenlaubs zum Ritterkreuz, sowie Nahkampfspange in Gold bis zur Kapitulation der Waffen-SS an. [...]"
dito on page 95 in the 4th upgraded edition 2006 - as recipient in 1945
Dieter Zinke
- Doktor Krollspell
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Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Hello again Gentlemen!
I guess that a date, or a number that once have been mis-interpretated could be repeated several times in different later sources but when it comes to the Schmelzer biography in Florian Berger's "Ritterkreuzträger mit Nahkampfspange in Gold" (2004) he (Berger) is quite specific in his text. While stating/claiming that Schmelzer had zuletz bis zu 70 Nahkampftage, Berger also writes on the fighting at the fighting at Kiew 1943 that...
Florian Berger lists several published books as well as Archives in Germany as sources.
Regards,
Krollspell
I guess that a date, or a number that once have been mis-interpretated could be repeated several times in different later sources but when it comes to the Schmelzer biography in Florian Berger's "Ritterkreuzträger mit Nahkampfspange in Gold" (2004) he (Berger) is quite specific in his text. While stating/claiming that Schmelzer had zuletz bis zu 70 Nahkampftage, Berger also writes on the fighting at the fighting at Kiew 1943 that...
And later in France...Heinrich Schmelzer ging aus diesen efolgreichen Rückzugsgefechten nicht nur als Ritterkreuzträger, sondern auch als einer der ersten Inhaber der Nahkampfspange in Gold hervor. Bei Kiew - die Rote Armee trat hier mit 2,6 Mio. Mann und 2.400 Panzern zu Herbstoffensive über den Dnjepr an - hatte der 29jährige seinen bereits 50. Nahkampftag erreicht und somit als erst 26. Soldat und 10. Offizier das Unmögliche möglich gemacht. Mit 13. Jänner 1944 stieg der Kompaniechef zum Hauptsturmführer d.R. auf.
Da Hauptsturmführer Schmelzer auch an der Invasionsfront pausenlos im Fronteinsatz stand, kann man davon ausgehen, dass ihm zu diesem Zeitpunkt schon zwischen 60 und 70 Nahkampftage zu Buche standen!
Florian Berger lists several published books as well as Archives in Germany as sources.
Regards,
Krollspell
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Looks like a controversy.
And it's strange - two contradictory own accounts ?
What direct proofs are presented by Berger ?
The text is confusing. What does it mean ??
This is description, not content.
If Dörr in his latest edition is saying "recipient in 1945" - does the Berger text mean Schmelzer did reach the requirements in 1943 and was awarded or and should have been awarded (what did take place in 1945 then). ??
Sorry, with the greatest respect to Mr. Berger, that's just not quite specific with regard to the essential point ; have to admit, I don't like this "fiction style"
Dörr generally is accepting as a confirmation / proof
- an award document
- an authentic photo
A passage from Weidinger's huge divisional history (statement / comrades accounts) would do it also. ??
regards, Bernd
PS : I might be wrong here and too much critical of Berger. Just want to come to a point of the question.
And it's strange - two contradictory own accounts ?
What direct proofs are presented by Berger ?
The text is confusing. What does it mean ??
"...Unmögliche möglich gemacht." [reached the goal which seemed to be impossible]. And now ...?...seinen bereits 50. Nahkampftag erreicht und somit als erst 26. Soldat und 10. Offizier das Unmögliche möglich gemacht.
This is description, not content.
If Dörr in his latest edition is saying "recipient in 1945" - does the Berger text mean Schmelzer did reach the requirements in 1943 and was awarded or and should have been awarded (what did take place in 1945 then). ??
Sorry, with the greatest respect to Mr. Berger, that's just not quite specific with regard to the essential point ; have to admit, I don't like this "fiction style"
Dörr generally is accepting as a confirmation / proof
- an award document
- an authentic photo
A passage from Weidinger's huge divisional history (statement / comrades accounts) would do it also. ??
regards, Bernd
PS : I might be wrong here and too much critical of Berger. Just want to come to a point of the question.
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Just an update to those who R interested.
Mark Yerger got back to me and confirmed that Schmelzer did indeed get the Gold Clasp.
It will be mentioned in the upcoming Nordland book.
Mark Yerger got back to me and confirmed that Schmelzer did indeed get the Gold Clasp.
It will be mentioned in the upcoming Nordland book.
Re: Heinrich Schmelzer CCCG?
Thanks Bob !
Good to hear that this is 100% clear now and there's no controversy of author's anymore.
Bernd
Good to hear that this is 100% clear now and there's no controversy of author's anymore.
Bernd