Morbid photos on the forum

[itaiv40]

The forum staff has locked the thread on K.H. Frank dead body - before I got the chance to reply. Please do not erase this post.

Max criticized me for writing that the photo is lovely. Either he did not get or did not want to get the sarcasm. Please look at my original response. Clearly, the world lovely is in parenthesis (even following a cynical "oh"), which for every native English speaker is a sign of sarcasm. Reading anything else into this is ridiculous. I do not expect nor wish to view any such photo on this forum (nor have I ever posted any such images). I opened the thread, there was the picture - and I responded. That's it.

Thinking about it further - I wish that the forum members engage once and for all in a deeper discussion about such morbid photos. I find it somewhat troubling that I only hear protestations when dead Nazis are shown, while the endless images of the piles of bodies from Buchenwald, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen etc. appear without the same critiques (i.e. that it is insensitive to the families). PLEASE do not infer that I am implying that those who attack the posting of dead Nazis are pro-Nazis. That will be a crude distortion of my argument. The point is to ask ourselves: why do we view the posting of dead Nazis photos' as insensitive and distasteful (which I agree - they are), but take for granted that the bodies of their victims are completely open to the public domain (through museums, web forums such as this, etc.)?

[Max Williams]

The forum staff has locked the thread on K.H. Frank dead body - before I got the chance to reply. Please do not erase this post.

Max criticized me for writing that the photo is lovely. Either he did not get or did not want to get the sarcasm. Please look at my original response. Clearly, the world lovely is in parenthesis (even following a cynical "oh"), which for every native English speaker is a sign of sarcasm. Reading anything else into this is ridiculous. I do not expect nor wish to view any such photo on this forum (nor have I ever posted any such images). I opened the thread, there was the picture - and I responded. That's it.

Thinking about it further - I wish that the forum members engage once and for all in a deeper discussion about such morbid photos. I find it somewhat troubling that I only hear protestations when dead Nazis are shown, while the endless images of the piles of bodies from Buchenwald, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen etc. appear without the same critiques (i.e. that it is insensitive to the families). PLEASE do not infer that I am implying that those who attack the posting of dead Nazis are pro-Nazis. That will be a crude distortion of my argument. The point is to ask ourselves: why do we view the posting of dead Nazis photos' as insensitive and distasteful (which I agree - they are), but take for granted that the bodies of their victims are completely open to the public domain (through museums, web forums such as this, etc.)?

I think you have reacted a little too much, a little too soon. I was not critcising your entry which, being a native English speaker, I knew was meant in a sarcastic way. Having said that, this forum is not only inhabited by native English speakers and one must always consider misinterpretation.
There was a later entry which labelled this photo as "a lovely photo." I believe that misguidedly opens the floodgates to further and possibly more insensitive entries which could attract the wrong type of contribution to a serious historical forum. This type of thread is always in danger of going downhill fast.
Personally, I will make comments over this type of photograph no matter what the political persuasion of the deceased. Photos such as this sometimes have historical value and there is a place for them in research, but when they begin attracting comments such as "a lovely photo" then I think the value is downgraded and the discussion is in danger of rapid critical degeneration.
Aside from that, one must also consider the feelings of the deceased's descendants who are totally innocent of any crimes committed and who have the right to remember their loved ones as they wish, no matter what side the deceased was on.
Incidentally, I am also appalled by some insensitive comments made about photos of victims of camps such as Bergen-Belsen. It is the nature of the photos and the comments they attract; nothing to do with whether or not the deceased was a Nazi, a Communist or a Cossack.
Max.

[pavel michalek]

Sorry for those, who didn´t like photo I´ve posted. It was meant as historical value post only.

I´m glad what you are saying Max about Karl-Hermann Frank´s family, as I was watching an TV interview two years ago with one his daughters, who was talking about her mother Karola Blaschek - second wife to Karl-Hermann Frank since 1940.
Karola did really love him, despite of character difference between her vexatious and conflictful 15 years older husband.
Her love continued even after her post-war arrest and Soviet prison•, till her death.
She wasn´t married again and refused every man, who even wanted to invite her for just a dance.

• Her daughter even showed photo of her, when she was realesed in 1956 - tired grayish-haired sad looking woman.

[J. Duncan]

Apart from the comment by "sneachta" (who has made specific requests for such pictures), I did not find much "offensive" in the thread. Death is part of life, and many of these men "lived by the sword and died by the sword". War is a hellish thing, all around.
Many of these photos have been produced in books and I think it's Ok to post these with, of course, appropriate commentary. Most of those who posted in that thread were wondering about the "why" of the autopsy and weren't there to post sensationalist and mocking replies.

[Max Williams]

Apart from the comment by "sneachta" (who has made specific requests for such pictures), I did not find much "offensive" in the thread. Death is part of life, and many of these men "lived by the sword and died by the sword". War is a hellish thing, all around.
Many of these photos have been produced in books and I think it's Ok to post these with, of course, appropriate commentary. Most of those who posted in that thread were wondering about the "why" of the autopsy and weren't there to post sensationalist and mocking replies.

I think you are missing the point. The photo itself might have historical value, but posting such images must be done with sensitivity, no matter who the subject is. The problem arises when somebody drops the level of discussion by "glorifying" or "sensationalising" such an image and to say it's "a lovely photo" heads in that direction. That often leads to other remarks which have no place in historical discussion. The difference with posting such images on a discussion forum to publishing them in a book, is that when you read a book, you keep your thoughts and reactions to yourself. When they are on a discussion forum, they are open to remarks. And you must remember that Frank's children and grandchildren did not "live or die by the sword."
Max.

[Max Williams]

Sorry for those, who didn´t like photo I´ve posted. It was meant as historical value post only.

I´m glad what you are saying Max about Karl-Hermann Frank´s family, as I was watching an TV interview two years ago with one his daughters, who was talking about her mother Karola Blaschek - second wife to Karl-Hermann Frank since 1940.
Karola did really love him, despite of character difference between her vexatious and conflictful 15 years older husband.
Her love continued even after her post-war arrest and Soviet prison•, till her death.
She wasn´t married again and refused every man, who even wanted to invite her for just a dance.

• Her daughter even showed photo of her, when she was realesed in 1956 - tired grayish-haired sad looking woman.

Thanks for this information Pavel; that is a TV programme I would have liked to have seen. I know that Karola disagreed with Frank's decision that his children should leave the church, but it did not diminish her feelings for him. Frank was angry when he discovered that she had not arranged for one of his children to leave the church as he desired.
Max.

[J. Duncan]

I think you are missing the point. The photo itself might have historical value, but posting such images must be done with sensitivity, no matter who the subject is. The problem arises when somebody drops the level of discussion by "glorifying" or "sensationalising" such an image and to say it's "a lovely photo" heads in that direction. That often leads to other remarks which have no place in historical discussion. The difference with posting such images on a discussion forum to publishing them in a book, is that when you read a book, you keep your thoughts and reactions to yourself. When they are on a discussion forum, they are open to remarks. And you must remember that Frank's children and grandchildren did not "live or die by the sword."
Max.

Insensitivity to dead people exists...our society is permeated with it. To expect everyone to be sensitive to a photo of a dead SS man is like expecting there to be a perfect world without insensitive people in it. Humans are curious about death (we wouldn't be human if we weren't) and reactions to some of these photos are perfectly natural reactions. The Forum reserves the right to censure such pictures and if they decide to erase such photos, so be it. Of course they can edit out all insensitive commentary. What do you propose should be done about this? All criticism aside, what would be a reasonable solution to this issue? Such photos exist and insensitive people exist. A dilemna.

[Max Williams]

It is not the insensitivity to the dead person, but the living relatives. Insensitive people do exist, but should there be encouragement for them? Obviously the world is not perfect, but are you suggesting that there should be no boundaries? I think the forum staff are right to call a halt to discussion over a dead body and I commend them. I suppose one must pose the question, aside from morbid fascination, how much value to historical discussion is a post-mortem photo worth?
Max.

[vszulc]

A post also accusing the children and grandchildren of Nazis of also being guilty by the actions of their fathers/grandfathers has to be deleted !!

Dieter Zinke

[Dieter Zinke]

Closing words, sapiently verbalised by Max as usual.
And there the matter rests for the moment.

Dieter Zinke