Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

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RolandP
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Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#1

Post by RolandP » 18 Mar 2011, 22:47

I am looking for further information concerning the biography of the Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

Most of the information were from the new “Generale der Waffen-SS und Polizei” Volume 5 from Andreas Schulz and Dieter Zinke (Schulz/Zinke, Generale der Waffen-SS und Polizei, Band 5, 2011, S. 577, Anm. 17, S. 578, Anm. 23); I had only little to ad …

Additional information would be welcome … :milwink:

Geboren 27.9.1897 Frankfurt/ Oder, 2.8.1914 Eintritt in das 3.GRzF als Fhj., 22.5.1915 Lt., 19.10.1919 a.D., danach landw. und kaufm. Tätigkeit. 1.10.1930 Eintritt in die NSDAP, Nr. 319 393, 6.4.1933 – 1934 Leiter d. Ministerbüros der Reichsministers f. Volksaufklärung und Propaganda, 01.1934 Eintritt in die SS, Nr. 251 140,1934 Mitarbeiter d. Reichsrundfunkleitung, 09.1934 – 30.6.1935 M-Beauftragter d. Bereiches Berlin des Chefs AW, 1.7.1935 Übertritt zum Feldjägerkorps. Dann in die SchP übernommen,
1.1.1936 Hauptmann d.Sch.,
18.5.1936 aus der SS ausgeschieden,
19.10.1936 von der PV Berlin zum Stab Chef der Ordnungspolizei abgeordnet,
20.9.1937 m.W.v. 12.9.1937 wieder in die SS, Nr. 251 140, aufgenommen als SS-Hstuf.,
11.6.1938 – 10.7.1939 als SS-Hstuf. und Hauptmann d.Sch. Stabskommandant der SS-Schule „Haus Wewelsburg“, 21.6.1938 SS-Stubaf. m.W.v. 13.6.1938, 20.8.1938 Major d.Sch., RDA v. 13.6.1938, 28.6.1939 von Burgkommandant Siegfried Taubert „aus Gründen der Disziplin“ mit sofortiger Wirkung vom Dienst beurlaubt.
10.7.1939 „nach Konflikten Tauberts mit seinem Stabskommandanten Elstermann von Elster wird dieser unter Aufhebung seiner Abordnung zur SS-Schule „Haus Wewelsburg“ zur PV Berlin versetzt; die Stelle eines Stabskommandanten wurde danach nicht wieder neu besetzt. 26.8.1939 Einleitung eines SS-Disziplinarverfahrens, welches am 23.8.1940 „in Anbetracht der vor dem Feinde bewiesenen Tapferkeit“ eingestellt wird,


Elstermann wird aber nicht zur Polizeiverwaltung Berlin, sondern zur PV München versetzt, wie aus einem Tagesbefehl des Kommandos der Schutzpolizei München vom 15.8.1939 hervorgeht
15.08.1939: Major d.Sch. ELSTERMANN VON ELSTER wird unter Aufhebung seiner Abordnung zur SS-Schule WEWELSBURG zur PV. München versetzt und übernimmt während der Abwesenheit des Majors d.Sch. TRILLICH die Führung des S.Ak. West

28.08.1939: gemäß Funkspruch des RFSS tritt der durch Kommando-Verfügung vom 22.07.1939 abgeordnete Major d.Sch. TRILLICH zur PV. München zurück. TRILLICH übernimmt wieder den S.Ak. West, ELSTERMANN VON ELSTER übernimmt die stellvertretende Führung des S.Ak. Ost (Tagesbefehl vom 28.8.1939)

Dann kam Elstermann „zum auswärtigen Einsatz“, zum „Einsatz von Einzeldienstbeamten der Schutzpolizei des Reiches in der Provinz Posen…“


Zum 4.10.1939 wurde der Major Elstermann dann als Kommandeur des II. Bataillons zum neuaufzustellenden Polizei-Schützen-Regiment 1 der SS-Polizei-Division abgeordnet.


Im Sommer 1941 war Elstermann dann bereits an der Kolonialpolizeischule in Oranienburg, laut Befehl KdSch München „ … Abordnung des Majors d.Sch. ELSTERMANN VON ELSTER, momentan Kolonialpolizeischule Oranienburg, nach Lybien, Meldung am 02.09.1941 in Rom …“

Ein letzter Hinweis stammt aus dem Tagesbefehl des KdSch München vom 22.04.1942: Abordnung des Majors d.Sch. ELSTERMANN VON ELSTER zur Kolonialschule Tivoli bei Rom …


Elstermann soll dann am 10.4.1943 bei Bordj-Cedria, Tunesien, gefallen sein, 00.06.1943 posthum zum Oberstleutnant d.Sch. m.W.v. 1.2.1943 und RDA v. 20.4.1943 befördert, 3.11.1943 posthum zum SS-Ostubaf. m.W.v. 1.4.1943 befördert.
(Schulz/Zinke, Generale der Waffen-SS und Polizei, Band 5, 2011, S. 577, Anm. 17, S. 578, Anm. 23)

I asked here for comments, too :wink:
http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.ph ... post221711

Regards yours Roland

BB-WA
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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#2

Post by BB-WA » 21 Mar 2011, 10:35

Hi Roland

Very good topic I have also read the one on http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.ph ... post221711

Google translate still proves to be a problem with direct German / English translation but think I got most of it. I have a couple of questions that can hopefully be answered.

What did he do to be dissmissed from his post?

Is Stabsführer the same post as Stabskommandant? Or is Stabskommandant in reference to the post of Hauskommandant (i.e. Internal security of Wewelsburg). I know there was an SS-Kaserne Wewelsburg, but this was for external security.

In my file I had him as Stabsführer replaced by Hübner..
Stabsführer
(00.00.1939.) - (00.00.1942.) - SS-Hauptsturmführer. Paul Hübner SS# 11 834 - (Stuf 22.03.34, Ostuf 20.06.34, Hstuf 30.01.35, Stubaf 09.11.39, Hstuf.d.R. 00.00.00, [Ostubaf 09.11.42]) -
[Position not immeadiately filled] -
11.06.1938. - 10.07.1939. - SS-Hauptsturmführer. u. Hptm.d.SchuPo. Karl Elstermann von Elster SS# 251 140 -
00.00.0000. - 00.00.0000. - ???????

Interestingly he is buried a military cemetery in Bordj-Cedria in Tunisia (and presumably died in Tunisia?). You mention a possible connection with SD-Einsatzkommando Tunis, under Ostubaf. Rauff. I have only 2 SS-Sturmbannführer on his staff (corrections welcome). Von Elster died 09.04.1943, a month before SD-Einsatzkommando Tunis was withdrawn to Naples, Italy, on 09.05.1943. So what was he doing there, maybe in some sort of OrPo post as he had attended the Kolonialschule Tivoli bei Rom?
beim SD-Einsatzkommando Tunis -
SS-Sturmbannführer Wilhelm Beisner SS# 65 698 - (Stubaf 10.09.39) -
SS-Sturmbannführer Franz Hoth SS# 97 563 - (Stubaf 09.11.40) -

Any replies welcome
Regards
Brian


RolandP
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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#3

Post by RolandP » 23 Mar 2011, 12:13

Dear Brian,

thank you very much for your reply! :)

Concerning the Wewelsburg staff, I have no further information, but in the book of Andreas Schulz and Dieter Zinke, further information about Elstermanns “trouble” is mentioned.

It seems that SS-Obergruppenführer Taubert disliked the time Elstermann spend in the cellar with other members of the castle drinking too much … another point seems to be, that Elstermann shared the (only?) car, the Wewelsburg staff had, with the people of the village Wewelsburg …

Schulz/Zinke mentioned “ … die Stelle eines Stabskommandanten wurde danach nicht wieder neu besetzt….“ So there was no further „Stabskommandant“, but maybe a „staff leader“, but I don´t know, my point of interest is the later career of Elstermann within the police. :wink:


Concerning the SD-commando Rauff at Tunis, it was just an idea … I haven´t any additional information about that unit or a connection of Elstermann with this commando, too! :cry:

But what did a Major of the Schutzpolizei with knowledge about action of police units in colonies in April 1943 in this area? :?

Unfortunately, there is a large gap in his biography until his death in the Tunis area!

So I am looking for further replies, too

Regards yours Roland

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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#4

Post by BB-WA » 24 Mar 2011, 07:29

Hi Roland

Thanks for the info, it solves part of my question.

As for Tunisia, after he died (presumably KIA) he was promoted posthum some time later.
Elstermann soll dann am 10.4.1943 bei Bordj-Cedria, Tunesien, gefallen sein, 00.06.1943 posthum zum Oberstleutnant d.Sch. m.W.v. 1.2.1943 und RDA v. 20.4.1943 befördert, 3.11.1943 posthum zum SS-Ostubaf. m.W.v. 1.4.1943 befördert.
(Schulz/Zinke, Generale der Waffen-SS und Polizei, Band 5, 2011, S. 577, Anm. 17, S. 578, Anm. 23)
Maybe a clue lies in the reason for this posthum promotion. I have come across several officers promoted after they died on this forum, usually for recognition of service. I don't know if this was a common occurrence but it seems not. His earlier run in with Taubert certainly had no effect on this. Maybe his post in Tunisia is mentioned in his posthum promotion document or in his SS-Personalakte.

Maybe someone can explain to me what the difference is between Stabsführer and Stabskommandant, as I asked above. Thanks in advance.

Regards
Brian

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Ignacio
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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#5

Post by Ignacio » 25 Mar 2011, 12:42

Hello Roland

In Libya Elstermann von Elster served as (Orpo) "Verbindungsoffizier in Lybien für die italienischen Kolonien".

The death notice files in his SS personal file shows two things

* It seems he died in a plane crash ("Auf einem Fluge nach Afrika ...")
* He had been already promoted to Oberstleutnant d.SchP. and SS-Obersturmbannführer when the notice was published (V.B. 30.5.1943). So either his family made a mistake with his ranks or he was posthumously promoted someway well before the burocracy drew up the official "papers".
Elstermann von Elster.jpg
Elstermann von Elster.jpg (82.29 KiB) Viewed 1905 times
Regards

Ignacio

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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#6

Post by BB-WA » 26 Mar 2011, 03:01

Hi Ignacio

Great info, thanks for posting that. That solves his presence in Tunisia and the circumstance of his death.

Regards
Brian

RolandP
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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#7

Post by RolandP » 27 Mar 2011, 10:08

Dear Ignacio,

many thanks from me, too, your information are – I would nearly say “as usual” – more than interesting!!! :D

So it seems that Elstermann died on the flight to Tunisia. Because of the fact that he seems to be buried there, the plane might have crushed while landing or was shot down near the coast ….

Very interesting too is the position, he held in Lybia …. I have never heard of such an officer before … :?

With all the best
Yours thankful Roland

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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#8

Post by JoeW » 15 May 2020, 01:05

Ignacio wrote:
25 Mar 2011, 12:42
Hello Roland

In Libya Elstermann von Elster served as (Orpo) "Verbindungsoffizier in Lybien für die italienischen Kolonien".

The death notice files in his SS personal file shows two things

* It seems he died in a plane crash ("Auf einem Fluge nach Afrika ...")
* He had been already promoted to Oberstleutnant d.SchP. and SS-Obersturmbannführer when the notice was published (V.B. 30.5.1943). So either his family made a mistake with his ranks or he was posthumously promoted someway well before the burocracy drew up the official "papers".

Elstermann von Elster.jpg

Regards

Ignacio
Bringing this back to discussion, as RolandP has helped my identify my unknown Orpo Major as Karl Elstermann v. Elster. The physical similarities are obvious and after receiving his office file, I see that he in receipt of the EK I and II from his service in WWI as well as his service with the Police Division in WWII. He was on the staff of the Orpo Colonial Police School in Oranienberg. He was killed in the plane crash while on an Inspektion tour according to his file. And his posthumous promotion was made early in May with a communication between the SS-Personalhauptamt and the RFSS Personal Stab to be be effective 20.4.43.

Ignacio, may I ask your source for his position as Verbindungsoffizier in Lybien für die italienischen Kolonien? The last Dienststelle for him listed was the Colonial Police School.
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Ignacio
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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#9

Post by Ignacio » 26 Feb 2021, 10:14

Ignacio, may I ask your source for his position as Verbindungsoffizier in Lybien für die italienischen Kolonien? The last Dienststelle for him listed was the Colonial Police School
Finally I found my source
T-580_095_084.jpg
Microfilm roll T-580 R095

Regards

Ignacio

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Re: Major der Schutzpolizei Karl Elstermann von Elster

#10

Post by JoeW » 27 Feb 2021, 05:29

Better late than never. Thank you Ignacio. Any dating for the documentation? I guess we can presume 1942 sometime.

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