SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

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Re: SS-Ostuf Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#31

Post by Ste » 06 May 2014, 20:49

jan willem stokkers wrote:Hansmann indeed survived the war. He was not really a beloved Kp.Chef and some veterans of 1.A.A.12 HJ told me he was always involved in business whit the french people and even talks about doing business with the french resistance. (things to do with firearms) He send lots of stuff (wine/cloths/etc.) back home and even let a french commercial car be painted in german cammo so he could bring it with him to germany. They called him "an arschloch" he was always able to get away with it. He was at some of the meetings with other veterans but just a short-time. Hansmann became Kp.Chef of 1.A.A.12"HJ" 01.01.1944.

Karl-Walter Becker died 15.08.2006 and he was one of the nicest of the AA.12 i have spoken to.

Gr.JW

That's interesting.
In this forum we are able quite often to know awards and career of various officers, but it's not so common to know what kind of people they were and what opinion of them had the men under their command.
What about others Kp./Zugführers?Did they told you something about others officers?

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#32

Post by jan willem stokkers » 09 May 2014, 22:10

I found some minor info on Franz Sdun (Stun) Sdun was his family name and he died after te war. He was at the end of the war Uscha. (Hungary) and not Hscha.! He was also Stell.vert.Pio.Zug at this moment in Hungary.

I think there is not much difference with any other army in the world how people react on other soldiers/nco/officers. The W-SS was also just like any other army. The decorated officers before D-Day were not the super-hero's anymore after D-Day. I have many stories that Bremer was not the soldier he was in Russia, even in Hungary he was far away from the frontline and wenn things started to get worse he and his closed friends from the LSSAH drove away. He even was very bussy with not letting his Abt. into many action at Hungary. He knew things would not end like Hitler wanted and he wanted to try to safe as many young soldiers he could. I know that they young soldiers who came to the A.A.12 short before B.o.B. they told me that they disliked Hugo Kraas. He was a reall snob, did not have any contact with any other then senior-officers. The soldiers in Normandy reallo loved Witt because he was a father for the young soldiers but Kraas was never to be seen or never talked with soldiers. I have been told by former LSSAH soldiers of A.A.1 that they liked Olboeter better as there A.A.12 Abt.Kommander. Olboeter was a reall soldier and always slept on his "camp-bed" and Bremer always wanted the best stuff around him, a normal bed, he was drinking, partying, many times he was drunk in the evening. Olboeter was a reall soldier who always wanted the best for his man and was always around them. He knew al his soldiers by name, knew what happend with parents (died during airraids on german cities), he even sent young soldiers who lost there parents to his mother east of Berlin to his familyhouse/farm to have somekind of relieve and his mother took care of these young soldiers. Just a small impression but ofcourse many more to tell :milwink:

Gr.JW


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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#33

Post by rossmcpharter » 10 May 2014, 15:14

That's great information JW!

Can you keep it coming, or would it be better in another thread?

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#34

Post by seaburn » 08 Oct 2014, 19:38

I came across this today – its further information about STUN and gives an interesting insight into why his request in Normandy to take away prisoners was rebuffed with the comment ‘Nee, mein Lieber, kommt nicht in Frage, den ich kenne Deine methode’ ( Oh no, old chap, out of the question, for I know your methods’).

This testimony is a translation from German of evidence gleaned from captured members of the Aufklärungsabteilung 12 SS Panzerdivision Hitler-Jugend in relation to the atrocity at Ascq in April 1944:

....Immediately after the explosion HAUCK assembled his officers and senior N.C.O.s and ordered them to break with their men into the town of ASCQ and to fetch all the male population to the train; he stressed the necessity of making used of their fire-arms at the slightest provocation or attempt of evading arrest. The punitive column was despatched into the town in three groups, two of which were led by Uscha STUHN and Hascha RASMUSEN respectively, both men were known for their brutality. The groups carried out the task within an hour, shooting in the streets at the civilian population who took to their houses at their approach; use was also made of machine guns. Shooting continued inside the houses where much looting took place. In the meantime a group of Frenchmen numbering between 30 and 40 were brought to the train where they were interrogated by Ostuf HAUCK and several of his officers, all of whom were under the influence of drink. The Frenchmen were ordered to carry out repair work on the damaged line during which they were subjected to brutality by RASMUSEN and STUHN as well as others. The line was put in order soon after dawn and the Frenchmen were then escorted to the rear of the train and assembled in a near- by field. RASMUSEN, STUHN and others opened fire at them on orders of HAUCK who also fired.....(WO311/691-p33)

The following synopsis of STUHN was made:

Unterschraführer STUHN – 2 Coy.

Possible whereabouts – Unknown

Born about 1914, very tall and strongly built; bad teeth; wears EK1 for saving his Bn Commander’s (Stubaf BREMER’S) life in Russia. Close friend of BREMER. Feared by his comrades for his brutality. Killed a Frenchman with the butt of his pistol and shot several others (see statement of FUERST) (WO311/691-P36)

Although his name is spelt STUHN above, at the end of the file his name is given as Leopold Stun which is what ‘Ste’ reported He was obviously a former member of the LSAH who served with Bremer on the EF.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#35

Post by seaburn » 06 Mar 2015, 17:56

In the picture of Hansmann on first post, he is wearing a black uniform. When he joined Bremer's recon btln, is there any reason he would have worn black - in the files on the executions at Audrieu it stated that he usually wore black - this should have been significant as an Officer in black was noted by witnesses as being present with Bremer. Initially the prosecuting investigators thought this black uniformed Officer must have been a Panzer Regiment liaison Officer and only later did suspicion fall on Hansmann I believe.

Apologies if the answer to this is very obvious to others.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#36

Post by Harro » 06 Mar 2015, 19:06

In the recce battalion black was only issued to members of the Panzerspäh units. As Hansmann was with 1. (Pz.Sp)/SS-PzAA12 he wore black.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#37

Post by seaburn » 06 Mar 2015, 20:30

Thanks 'Harro' that clears that one up.

There appears to be very conflicting witness statements on the identity of those who were at the Château Audrieu that day - What is known is that there were three Officers who interrogated the POWs- two in Camo, one in Black. A very strange allegation as to the identity of one of the Officers has come my way which needs further investigation.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#38

Post by seaburn » 08 Mar 2015, 18:06

In witness Statements as to what happened in the Chateau Audrieu that day - one stated the following about the 'Officer in black' which the investigating team later alleged was probably Hansmann.
WO_219_5045_0031-crop.JPG
WO219/5045-p19
If this witness is correct, it would throw a different light on the identity of the Officer in Black. I have not seen as yet the evidence as to why they thought it was Hansmann, I know that Margolian writes it as if it was him but from what I can deduce, he does this because the Investigators alleged rather than had a positive ID that it was him. Has anyone else seen evidence to show that it had to be him ?

The witness on the Collar tabs (a 22 year old female relation of the owners of the Château) was questioned in July 44 and it does seem strange that she would have noted this as it is an authentic insignia worn by other divisions that I presume she should not have been familiar with at that time. She also noted other soldiers with 'Adolf Hitler' cuff titles, I have come across other instances where members of the HJ still wore these. Could this Officer in Black have also kept an original uniform after transfer from a Heer Panzer division? Does anyone have a record of such a transfer. He was noted as being a 'Captain' but this was probably more of a guess than anything else.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#39

Post by seaburn » 12 Mar 2015, 22:43

There was further testimony about the 'Officer in Black' from the daughter of the owner of the Château d'Audrieu - Monique Level, who was 20 years old at the time. An investigation team was set up on July 11th 1944, barely one month after the killing, when memories were still very fresh. This strange incident was reported by her in relation to this Officer: WO209/5045-p43


Q: Do you know what happened to the British soldiers?

A: I left at that moment and did not hear any shots. I came downstairs and spoke to a German Officer near the foot of the stairs.


Q: What did you say to this German Officer?

A: He came to me and asked me for civilian clothing, so I went and got clothes which I gave to him.


Q: Which Officer was this?

A: The Captain in Black.


Q: Do you know what he did with this clothing?

A: I think he went and set fire to vehicles in the village.


Q: Do you know what vehicles he set fire to?

A: No, This Officer had a weapon in his hand with appeared to me to be a flame thrower.


Q: What did it look like ?

A: The base of this weapon was semi-circular, it was about four feet in length and the Officer could carry this weapon. He had blackened his face, in places only, not all over, with some cork we had burned.


Q: Did you see him blackening his face?

A: We took some coal and that did not do the trick and then we burnt a cork and did what he told us to do.


Q: Did the German Officer tell you to help him blacken his face?

A: Yes he did; he ordered me to do it.


Q: Who else helped you?

A: I think Annie did but I cannot be sure.


Q: Did he put the civilian clothes on?

A: Yes, he put them on and left the house with them on. He returned two or three hours later and he was still wearing the civilian clothes. He then took them off and returned them to me.


Q: Did this German Officer wash in the Château?

A: I do not know, but I saw him an hour or two later and he was clean then.


The time of this encounter is not noted, but the troops left at around 21.00 hrs, so this must have been in the evening before the shelling started at 18.30hrs. There was no fighting at the Château at that time, but the sound of fighting was approximately 1 km away according to most testimonies. So this Officer would have been in civilian clothes behind his own lines initially. There was speculation in the book 'Trois Jour en enfer'- (George Bernage) that he was holding a panzerfaust. Her assertion that he asked for civilian clothes was backed up by another witness who was also asked for some.

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Re: SS-Ostuf Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#40

Post by seaburn » 16 Mar 2015, 20:47

jan willem stokkers wrote:Hansmann indeed survived the war. He was not really a beloved Kp.Chef and some veterans of 1.A.A.12 HJ told me he was always involved in business whit the french people and even talks about doing business with the french resistance. (things to do with firearms) He send lots of stuff (wine/cloths/etc.) back home and even let a french commercial car be painted in german cammo so he could bring it with him to germany.
Gr.JW
While looking through some files in relation to what happened that day at the Chateau Audrieu, I noticed some interesting testimony that might link to the above assertion of 'J.W.S.'. This is part of the testimony of Eugene Buchart a friend of a local farmer who saw some of the POWs alive when he passed the Chataeu in the evening of the 8th of June. Some short time later he heard shots and the following morning he saw 13 bodies at the same place. Asked by the investigating team in July 44 who had seen in the Chateau that day he mentioned the following:
WO_219_5045_0070-crop.JPG
WO219/5045-70
This car seems to be the same one that caught the attention of an Allied Intelligence Officer who was sent to examine all vehicles left behind for clues as to the identity of the unit at the Château on the 8th. The vehicles had been abandoned as they were mostly destroyed during the bombardment that started on the night of the 8th. As this was only one month after the event, the inquiry team were still not clear how the Officer in the Black Uniform came to be present at the executions and at that time he was suspected as being a Panzer liaison Officer - they were not aware until later that in fact members of the Recon Unit did indeed wear black as per 'Harro's confirmation above.
WO_219_5045_0065-crop.JPG
WO219/5045-65

As you can see the inquiry team are mystified as to how a civilian car came to be there and the noting that the paint pattern was not standard would lead me to suspect that this may have something to do with the account above of Jan Willem, although tenuous, it does seem to be added confirmation that Hansmann the Black Uniformed Officer.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#41

Post by andernach » 17 Mar 2015, 00:29

Hello,

by checking the information about the described car I have found an false information.

Feldpostnummer 56804A did not belong to SS-PzRgt 12 but to Stab III./SS-PzGrenRgt 26 (Olboeter).
Also the license plate nummer SS-932559 should belong to SS-PzGrenRgt 26.
For example:
932 592 9.(gep.)/PzGrenRgt 26 SdKfz 251
932 604 III.(gep.)/PzGrenRgt 26 mLKW Opel Blitz
932 607 III.(gep.)/PzGrenRgt 26

With the Stab III./SS-PzGrenRgt 26 there was only one Hauptsturmführer, the Ordonnanz-Offizier Jürgen Gaeddertz.
On 01.05.1944 he was transfered to Stab III./SS-PzGrenRgt 26 from: SS-PzAufklAbt 12 !
Erich Olboeter (Btl Kdr) and Wolfgang Hopf (Adjutant) also were transfered from SS-PzAufklAbt 12.

Best wishes,

andernach

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#42

Post by seaburn » 17 Mar 2015, 01:50

Tks for posting 'Andernach' - I had checked the feldpost number but had only got the info that it was the Stab of the 26th Regiment so you have got even better details ! The witness E. Buchart did not observe the 'Officer in Black' described by others in the Château during the executions of the first two batches of prisoners earlier that day - therefore its not known if this 'Black Uniformed Officer' he saw alighting from the car was the same person. None of the other witnesses spoke of this car and so he seems to have arrived at that time unobserved by them at least.

From earlier testimony it seems the 'Officer in Black' connected to the executions had left the château sometime in the afternoon with civilian clothes and had returned later. The truth of the matter seems to be that the three Officers described by witnesses as being present that day have never been positively identified. This has left room for some to challenge the accepted opinion that they were Bremer, von Reitzenstein and Hansmann - My interest in the details of what happened there that day has been piqued by a French publication which alleges that it was not Bremer in command during the executions, rather that it was a HJ Regimental Commander. Although I feel the evidence for that assertion is tenuous, it did warrant a check to see if it could be true. I will be posting soon on a new thread in relation to my findings on that allegation.

As regards Hansmann, if anyone can throw any more light on the car and who may have been in it from 'Andernach's' details or if you have any ideas as to why the man who was alleged to have been Hansmann asked for civilian clothes and left the Château for a number of hours, please post.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#43

Post by jan willem stokkers » 17 Mar 2015, 11:07

Many of the Officers and NCO's (speaking of AA.12) still had there original cuffs. I have photos of officers and nco's with cuffs from the LSSAH/Totenkopf and some other units. Yess the officiers and NCO's and soldiers had black clothing. Look for example the photos of AA.12 in Meyers book at Turnhout Kaserne. The germans used many types of cars and yess even "private" cars. Or maybey its better to say what civilians think is private cars but for the German army was miltiary cars. There are plenty of cars like opel or other brands which looked non military but was made for military service. The french used citroën cars for there army and the germans used them after france had surrended. There is something about these statements of civilians (just short after what happend) were i have some mixted feelings with. How can a young girl, in the middle of the D-Day landings, the AA.12 was just a very short time at the Audrieu surrounding, constantly shelling from ship-artillery (i have a "few" stories about the hell on earth these first days and specially the villages short to the coast with was constantly under fire, be sure that it was an officer?! The Jabos and normal artillery also were sheltering the surrounding).

The old guard as the young AA.12 soldiers called there nco's and officers were full with medals so can we say with 100% thruth that the person in black with the car and civilian clothing was an officer of that he even was Hansmann? The stories i have been told was Reitzenstein in command at the moment that Bremer was wounded as we also can read in Meyers book. Stab. and Stabskompanie. Bremer had some innercircle around him with officers but also nco's he trusted and he knew for already a long time from his early stages of the war. They have been with him during al the battles they fought. Hansmann was not in his innercircle and was not beloved by many so i have some doubts he was near at that moment.

Also with the clothing, it was not only Hansmann who brought private stuff from French to Gemany. I have some intersting stories about the Fallaise pocket with 250/9 vehicles full with stuff was wat not of the german army. There was a constantly trade going on with civilians and german soldiers in general. But Hansmann was one of them who was, as some veterans told me, maybey involved with some trade bussines with the french resistance. But can we be 100% sure we will never know! But Hansmann was as far as i can tell from veterans who have not been with him in 1.Kp. but only met him after the war not always a beloved person. He was also not a regular visitor of these meeting.

Gr. Jan Willem

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#44

Post by seaburn » 17 Mar 2015, 19:23

Thanks for your insights 'JWS' - I confess that I'm still baffled as to why Hansmann has been considered the only suspect in relation to the 'Officer in Black' as I am still unable to find an allegation against him from someone in his Btln. If you state that many Officers in the Recon Btln would have worn black, it has to be conceivable that it could have been someone else . The further one digs, the more it raises questions instead of answering them. But perhaps there is evidence against him not yet found. I did check 'Conduct Unbecoming' but Margolian just tells it as if it was him without providing any new evidence.

The very basics of this incident are that the eye witnesses in the Château that day noted 3 Officers. Two were in camo and one in Black. They had no idea who these men where, it was up to the investigating team to give their best educated guesses. The subsequent interrogation of Karl Walter Becker gave them some new information. As per the first posting on this thread, he had in his possession a photo of Hansmann. This was possibly the first indication to the investigating team that some of the Recon Btln wore Black, but it cannot be plausible that they just decided that he was the 'Officer in Black' on this basis.

I have been sent the documents from the London files that accompanied that photo (with sincere thanks to the forum member who supplied it). Unfortunately, it does not add to the evidence against Hansmann in relation to the Château Audrieu case, nor does the interrogation of Becker that I already had from TS26/856 - but there is other good evidence in that one concerning Bremer and von Reitzenstein.


This is the only information I have found so far in relation to him being suspected as the 'Officer in Black' that day, this document is from 1946:
WO_309_2219_0049-cropH.JPG
WO309/2219-49
As you will note, there is no explanation given as to why he was suspected. If anyone can tell me if it is plausible that it could have been him and no one else due to his commanding of his unit, I'd be interested to hear it.

To clarify the 'car' testimony, the Officer seen alighting from the civilian car was in a Black Uniform, this information led the investigation team to suspect that he was the same 'Black Uniformed' Officer who was seen by witnesses at the Command post earlier in the day, he may however, have been another Officer who also wore a Black Uniform...... but none of the other witnesses mentioned a second one in their testimonies, they said all the other troops wore camo which should indicate that it was the same man. The reason I posted it was because the car was noted as having non standard camo paint and he endeavoured to place it in the Château's garage which led me to suspect, he may have been keeping it in his personal care which seemed to corroborate other stories about Hansmann, but as I admitted, it was a very tenuous link and I would never stand over it as it had probably just muddied the waters further.

The civilian eye witnesses in the main were considered quite reliable by the investigating team, their testimonies generally corroborated each other although I did find one or two small but very possibly significant inconsistencies in some of the details. The atmosphere in the Château portrayed by the witnesses on the stand was not as fraught as one would imagine, there was no feeling that the occupants felt that they were under threat from the Germans. In fact they seemed to be treated in quite a solicitous manner, one stating that the troops were concerned for their welfare and were incredulous that they had not left already. Some advised them how best to secure their porcelain collection and what measures to take when the fighting got closer to ensure their safety. They were also allowed the freedom to walk in and out of the grounds and the gardener was allowed to approach the bodies of some of the executed prisoners in order to retrieve some loose pigs without being threatened by the soldiers standing nearby.

However, there did appear to be more danger for them than they aware of at the time as Becker reported that after the wounding of Bremer, it was decided that the accurate shelling on the vicinity of the Command post could only have been possible due to informants giving away their positions to the Allies and therefore it was decided to murder civilians in reprisal - luckily for the occupants of the Château, this was never carried out.

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Re: SS-Ostuf. Willy Peter Hansmann, 12. SS-Div. HJ

#45

Post by seaburn » 20 Mar 2015, 15:02

I have looked through book citations coupled with documents from the investigation team in relation to what evidence was garnered to place Hansmann at the scene of the executions at the Château Audrieu on June 8th 1944. I had thought that Becker might have given testimony against him when that photo from the first post was found on him, but there was nothing in his testimony to tie Hansmann to the executions.

In the piece of the 1947 interim report that I have posted above the only reference to his name stated that he 'may' be the Officer in black. Certainly he was considered a 'person of interest' and even at the start of that document he was listed under the heading of 'accused' with Bremer, von Reitzenstein and Stun, but while there was an indication after each of their names as to why they were 'accused' (all from Becker's testimony) there was no apparent reason why Hansmann was in the mix. My only conclusion is that the investigators thought that he was the only Officer in the Recon Btln that wore Black and not camo, which sounds very simplistic but without any other obvious evidence, this is all I can think of.

The fact that one of the witnesses at the Château stated the 'Office in Black' had skulls on his tabs further throws doubt on it being Hansmann. Of course she may have got that detail wrong as it should be very unlikely that an 'outsider' was there and that he was made party to these executions. But it must be noted that this Officer was the only one of the three mentioned who interacted with the Château's residents during that day on numerous occasions. The gardener stated that he wore no decorations that he could remember, he was also of the opinion that this Officer was superior in rank to the man the others thought was the 'Commander', this is possibly because he saw him issuing orders to the troops. Another of the young girls noted that he had an 'Adolf Hitler' cuff title on his jacket . These details coupled with the bizarre story of him asking for civilian clothes and that he directed the shooting party into the woods is all that is known about him. (Source: all WO219/5045)

Personally I do not have enough knowledge or sources about the members of this Btln or how they interlinked with the Panzer Lehr in these early days to come up with a likely identification for this Officer, but I do suggest that the evidence to convict Hansmann on what details were known back then is very tenuous indeed. Sadly, this has not stopped subsequent authors naming him as the 'Officer in Black' without a hint to their readers that the identification was questionable. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility that it was him either. I leave it up to those who have immersed themselves in the events of what was happening in and around the Château that day to try and fit the pieces of the puzzle together .

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