Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

[seaburn]

Here's an interesting picture I have just received of Max Wünsche with his 'Oakleaves'. It appears to have been published in Oct 44 ,two months after his capture in France. I have never seen a picture of him before with the Oakleaves, I presume its a genuine photo ? But as he was only awarded it shortly before he was captured, I'm not sure. Has anyone any details of when and where it was presented to him?

Source: Max Wünsche's SS file

[Kameraden]

Nice picture. Over 100 views and no replies.

The OL looks photoshopped and I've never actually seen a picture of Wünsche above Sturmbannfuhrer so I'm not convinced the rank insignia is genuine either. It was a common practice in the German newspapers at the time.

[seaburn]

Yes, it is intriguing. I haven't seen a picture of him receiving this decoration, not sure if one exists. This is from his SS file which contains the other familiar pictures of him receiving his previous decorations. I do think that Wünsche looks 'grim' in this picture though, as if he's had no sleep for days and the going was rough........its a very different picture from his 'RK' ones in '43, which does lead one to suspect that it WAS taken in August 44. Is it just me or does his cap look like it was borrowed from Kurt Meyer, perhaps he also gave him his 'RK' for the photo !

[Kameraden]

It's hard for me to make a 100% decision based on the picture size, but I'm convinced now the only genuine thing in the picture is the face and it's the face of a younger Wünsche.

I don't believe he ever received his OL or if he did it would have been much much later than October in captivity. It did happen in captivity though as Otto Kretschmer received his Swords in a POW camp. In Oct he has only been a prisoner for 2 months and at that point he may still be getting interrogated in the London cage before being sent to Scotland. Also I have never seen him with Obersturmbannfuhrer insignia. Also as being a POW for less than 2 months and also camera's and camera film not being readily available to POW's and the postal service between Germany and the UK(Via Neutral Country's) not being reliable then it's not likely that such a picture existed.

Now he did wear a battered cap on occasion as in the picture below. However in the newspaper picture his hair looks very neat such as peacetime pictures of him. In the battered cap pic below his hair seems rough being at the front. So the cap in the picture may be genuinely on his head, but I think it's been retouched by the propaganda dept.


The OL is terrible and is defo retouched. Now he had the KC at this point for over a year, so if it was a genuine half body portrait of him then there would be no need to retouch it. However as I think only the face is genuine, and everything else including the rank tabs are retouched then it's possible they retouched that too. The neck at the collar doesn't seem to fit well also.

Go to this link and look at the articles from the Black Corps newspaper. Lots of KC's and Ol's being awarded and lots of retouching going on. Look at Reinfarths Oakleaves. They are terrible. Compared to some of those your picture is excellent. Some of the retouching is laughable. However there are some genuine pics and it looks like a real one of Wünsche on page 5. So in short I believe the clipping is genuinely from 1944 and possible also from the same newspaper, but he never had his OL's by Oct 44 and I don't know if he ever wore the Obersturmbannfuhrer rank insignia.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=36282

[seaburn]

Very comprehensive 'Kameraden'. This clipping is from Swartz Korps dated 26.10.44, this writing is probably indistinguishable in the picture posted. I'm still going through the large file but there is a letter of congratulations to Wünsche from Himmler dated August 12th. This was only a few days before he was captured so that does back up the theory that he never actually received it before he was on his way to England. He was all decked out in decorations during his many interrogations, with one Canadian noting that 'he was decorated like a Christmas tree' and during Kurt Meyer's trial, General Foster noted that 'his chest was littered with decorations, including the Knights Cross'. I do agree he looks more like his 'younger' pictures, but I still think he looks 'grim'. Hopefully someone will know the background to this mystery and post the real story some day.

[seaburn]

By the by, if anyone here can answer my question as to why 'Lebensborn' is mentioned in his file,

Please post on this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=208397

[freddiefro]

By the by, if anyone here can answer my question as to why 'Lebensborn' is mentioned in his file, Please post on this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=208397

I posted on the above-mentioned thread.

Fred

[seaburn]

In Wunsche’s SS file there is a document entitled ‘Personalangaben’ which notes the date of his ‘Oak leaves’ as 11.8.44. It also records the he was the 548th person to receive this award.

In his interrogation dated Sept 7th 1945 in London he was asked:

Q.147 - What decorations do you wear?

A.147 - The Oak leaves to the Knights Cross, the wounds medal, the Iron cross 1st Class, 2nd Class and Assault badge and the German Gold Cross.

His ‘Personalangaben’ actually lists a significant number of other decorations awarded to him, but it’s not clear why he didn't mention these also. That said, he appears to have mentioned and worn the most important ones. He also states in his interrogation that he was captured on the 24th of August. But he had been evading capture for some days before that. So all in all there was only approx 10 days from the date the 'Oakleaves' commendation came through to his last day of combat, still possibly enough time to physically receive it, but if he did, it appears that no photographic evidence of this event has surfaced.

[freddiefro]

His ‘Personalangaben’ actually lists a significant number of other decorations awarded to him, but it’s not clear why he didn't mention these also.

Because, the question was "What decorations do you wear?" The decorations he replied to are the ones he would wear in the field. The remaining ones (Ostmedaille, königl.bulg.Tapferkeitsorden IV Klasse 1.Stufe, Krone Rumäniens mit Schwertern, Offz.Kreuz d.Ordens v.Italien, Offz.Kreuz.d.kgl.ung.Verd.Ordens, Orden d.jugosl.Krone 4.Kl. Offz.Kreuz.d.Ordens d.Krone von Rumämien, SA-Sportabzeichen in Silber, Reichssportabzeichen in Bronze, Reitersportabzeichen in Bronze) would not be worn in the field unless on a ribbon bar and, even then, probably not in the field. In Parade Dress, they would be worn on a Medal Bar along with wearing the 3 Sports badges and the "most important" awards. If he was in Walking-Out Dress, the 3 Sports badges would be worn along with a ribbon bar (and a ribbon in the buttonhole for the EKII). This would also include wearing the "most important" awards.

Fred

[seaburn]

Tks Fred, that's very insightful. There is a further anomaly with regard to Wünsche’s rank you might be able to clear up. His 'Personalangaben' as quoted lists him as an 'Obersturmbannführer' as does the newspaper clipping. Furthermore, in the note of congratulation from Himmer and in the official announcement of the ‘OL’ in his file he is also listed as an 'Obersturmbannführer'.

But this is what he said about his rank in that interrogation of Sept 7th 1945:

Q3. What is your rank?
A3. Standartenführer

Q4. When were you promoted to Standartenführer?
A4. 1st of August last year, I received the rank when I was not a prisoner.


So Wünsche maintains he knew about his new rank 11 days before his 'Oakleaves’. Yet, this promotion does not seem to have been noted in his file. Beside the ranking of 'Standartenführer' there is no date acknowledged, just the word ' vermißt'. But even though he was missing/a prisoner, this promotion should have been officially formalised I would have thought?

[pim]

A very recently published book has a good quality photo of Wünsche as an Obersturmbannführer in it. It is the same photo as above but without the cap. It does not have the oakleaves photoshopped.
The book is titled: "Aus eigenem Entschluß - Band 1 Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS" by Jürgen Karl. Furthermore the book has quite a few top quality photos I have not seen published before. However the text contains nothing really new and is subjective.

[seaburn]

That seems to verify the manipulation of a known photograph then........

Has anyone got an insight into the Obersturmbannführer/Standartenführer query? I see on his wiki site for instance it mentions both ranks, which is confusing in itself. Other than his assertion that he was told/given the rank on August 1st, is there anywhere else that verifies that promotion? Was it usual to have it officially with-held if the person was missing or captured? I understand that decorations were often bestowed posthumously but I'm not sure about promotions.

[eindhoven]

It is interesting that you say he looks 'grim'. Wünsche very often looked stern IMHO. Just one example among the many.

I would like to add however that if the photo is field taken we should remember he suffered a head wound during this time. In subsequent photos of him with that head wound he clearly 'looks' different.

After making adjustments you can see the added oakleaves. I will check some other sources.

[eindhoven]

This unpublished BPK photo of Wünsche also shows a rather grim look. Often in photographs Wünsche appears stern or serious possibly as you put it grim.

[seaburn]

I agree that he was often photographed looking 'stern', especially at medal presentations during his adjutant days. 'Off duty' he tended to be more relaxed. I surmise that the prevailing opinion here is that this photograph was 'doctored' by the media of the time. I'm surprised it hasn't made its way into the public domain before now and even with its lack of authenticity, I still think that it is a picture of 'interest'.