Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

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eindhoven
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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#16

Post by eindhoven » 22 Jun 2014, 17:41

Absolutely. There are still quite a few that haven't made the rounds yet. The picture is a great one and thank you for posting it. Doctored or not.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#17

Post by seaburn » 29 Jul 2014, 10:19

In August 1945, Wünsche was interrogated by the Canadians, following this an Intel. report was filed - There is a record of Kurt Meyer being interrogated at that time too in the Netherlands, his interrogation mentions the presence of Wünsche at one point, so I presume the following extract from Wünsche's Intel. was conducted there too. I have no references for this report as the Canadians did not use them but the date is noted as August 3rd 1945.

Of interest to this thread is that Wünsche's rank was listed as OBSF but sometime after this was typed up, this rank was crossed out and in pencil beside it was written - SF. There was no explanation for this noted, often interrogations were re-read back to the POW for them to make changes, but I would seriously doubt that an Intel report would be.

The interesting part for me in these reports is the insight into the Subjects attitude at that time as noted here about Wünsche:

"PW is definitely a museum piece. He is 150% Nordic warrior, wearing every order of the Iron Cross; an officer of the Leibstandarte since 1933 on and a fanatic of the most extreme order, with a well disciplined and calculating brain. His information is reliable on military matters, but his attitude is irreconcilable"

He seems to have got off somewhat lighter than Kurt Meyer whose character was noted in March 45 as:

"A tough, aggressive and dashing soldier with little experience of command over regimental level. Is a thorough-going Nazi, brutal,unscrupulous, untrustworthy, and conscienceless. One of the more dangerous, if un-subtle, type of SS Officer. His active forceful nature is unlikely to reconcile itself easily either to captivity or to future days of peace" (WO208/4486)


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eindhoven
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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#18

Post by eindhoven » 03 Aug 2014, 09:26

Regarding Kurt Meyer - "A tough, aggressive and dashing soldier with little experience of command over regimental level." I would characterize this assessment as fairly accurate. Meyer lambasted the British for uncoordinated armored attacks in his self serving 'Grenadiers' yet he himself sent Wünsche's Panthers into Bretteville-l'Orgueilleuse without infantry support resulting in 12 of them being destroyed. Then there is getting surrounded at Kharkov or other incidents where Meyer's lack of tactical planning showed flaws in his command ability.

Regarding Wünsche - "His information is reliable on military matters, but his attitude is irreconcilable" Wünsche would profess to his dying days that Hitler was a great man. Treu bis zum letzten I suppose. I would say that is a pretty irreconcilable attitude even after having been dismissed from his adjutant duties to Hitler over a petty squabble with Hitler's chef, bearing witness to the destruction of Germany and the mass murder of millions. It was Wünsche who broke through to Kurt Meyer at Kharkov and Wünsche who held the Falaise Pocket open for as long as he could. Tactically Wünsche was competent.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#19

Post by seaburn » 03 Aug 2014, 20:33

I confess that I don’t know enough about Wünsche's prowess in the field as I have not studied that in depth as yet. I have posted previously that I find him an intriguing character which is based on the little that has been published about him coupled with his interrogations and intel reports that have been uncovered so far. General H Foster’s Jaw dropping description of him in ‘Meeting of Generals’ is mirrored in other documents so far uncovered which commonly feature four distinct strands.

1. His physical appearance bizarrely features in many intel reports and leaves the reader in no doubt that he was a ‘head turner’, Foster gushing that he was ‘unbelievably handsome, he should have been a movie star’.

2. His attitude was a source of irritation to all who interviewed him as per the example above, another went further to say ‘Wünsche impressed his interrogator as being the worst type of SS officer, arrogant fanatical Nazi’. Elsewhere his entrenched views were recorded thus ‘His ideas and general philosophy was stated in exactly the same terms as Meyer.’

3. His decorations were also described by many ‘decorated like a Christmas tree’, ‘chest littered with decorations including the Knights cross’ and as above ‘wearing every decoration of the Iron Cross

4. His competence on the field noted above and recorded elsewhere as ‘Wünsche commanded the armd elt of the unit which constituted the only mobile counter attack force available against the thrust of the Cdn army towards Falaise.........Wünsche was however a brilliant tank commander and was willing to fight to the death for his own ‘honour’ and that of the SS’

Even taking all the above into consideration, it’s still surprising to me to read a Canadian Officer’s assertion that Wünsche was ‘the perfect example of Aryan youth as laid down in the pages of Mein Kampf’. http://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent. ... ontext=cmh

As you observed ‘Eindhoven’, even though he carved out a successful career for himself in post-war Germany, it appears that his views were not diminished by living for over 50 years in a democracy and that he stayed loyal to Hitler to the end. This was shown by his appearance in a TV documentary in 1990, where he asserted that ‘Hitler only wanted the best for Germany, of that I am sure’ and that Hitler was aghast at the events on Kristallnacht. :roll: His dislike of the Allies even after many decades was relayed by a member of the WAF who is still smarting after Wunsche refused to sign one of his photo’s in the 1980s, Wunsche angrily telling the guy that he ‘disliked the British, Americans and Australian’s…’. It would be interesting to know what the Australians did to incur his wrath, and why the Canadians were omitted! :P

Although there have been some mysteries solved on other threads with regard to his pre-war marriage, his dismissal from Hitler’s staff and his units presence in Jefremowka with KM on the day that the villagers were massacred, there are still many gaps in life story that need to be uncovered IMO. He stayed under the radar for most of the post war period, there is a rumour that he recorded his life story in the 1970s but the tapes were lost. I think it would make interesting reading especially his time with Hitler and his interaction with the movers and shakers of the time, his actions on the Eastern Front and in Normandy, plus his capture and incarceration for four years in the UK and his life in post war Germany. Hopefully someday someone will publish the full story.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#20

Post by eindhoven » 24 Aug 2014, 20:46

Seaburn, I think in your research that you will find Wünsche to be exactly as described and typical of what US veterans I have interviewed describe consistently when bringing up the Waffen-SS "Arrogant Bastards". I have heard that time and again. I too believe an enormous opportunity was lost in leaving Wünsche's historical account out. On the whole it must be remembered Wünsche's views were not something HIAG were promoting post-war tailoring their crafted message on the vocal chords of his former commander and cohort Kurt Meyer. I doubt Wünsche could forgive KM for his new message or his collaboration with former enemies.

Wünsche's tactical abilities were supreme. I have studied them in detail. Research the destruction of Worthington Force in Normandy near Hill 113 and the 100 acre wood. Panthers from his regiment along with grenadiers from KG Krause and KG Waldmüller performed spectacularly holding this area until 14 August 1944. Wünsche far exceeded anything Wittmann did at Villers-Bocage in terms of inflicting damage on the enemy. Recall too that it was Wünsche's Panzer Regiment combined with HJ grenadiers that successfully held the Falaise Pocket open until they were nearly decimated. He went into captivity after being wounded multiple times in Normandy leading from the front. Then there is his rescue of Kurt Meyer's encirclement near Kharkov. This in and of itself is quite a feat to have accomplished.

You mentioned the Torland Tapes. These are not lost. They are owned by the BBC and have not been released. Yes Wünsche did provide his accounting on those tapes as did many others just as he gave a brief accounting to David Irving who overcame Wünsche's extreme dislike for the British. Why the BBC is recalcitrant to provide the Torland Tapes to researchers is beyond me however I'm quite certain for the right price one could acquire what is needed. Money talks.

Anything is conjecture on why he did not reserve a dislike for the Canadians. Sadly he is no longer around to explain.

Have you found anything about Wünsche and HIAG post-war? I have not.

His post-war interview on Hitler is quite enlightening.

Die Wehrmacht 1944 Heft 13
Angriff verwundete Wünsche sprach mit Meyer and Krause 12th-SS-HJ.jpg
BBC
alter max II.jpg
alter max II.jpg (185.35 KiB) Viewed 1814 times

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seaburn
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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#21

Post by seaburn » 24 Aug 2014, 21:04

As usual Eindhoven you have a knack of finding great photos - I haven't seen that one before of him in Normandy ! Please continue to post similar :wink:

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#22

Post by rossmcpharter » 25 Aug 2014, 17:54

Interestingly it shows KM in what appears to be a leather trenchcoat. The image has also been published in 'Trois jours en enfer' p147 by Bernage and Jeanne

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#23

Post by eindhoven » 27 Aug 2014, 01:33

rossmcpharter wrote:Interestingly it shows KM in what appears to be a leather trenchcoat. The image has also been published in 'Trois jours en enfer' p147 by Bernage and Jeanne
Regenmantel I think for a rainy day in Normandy. Less heavy than the leather trenchcoat or Ledermantel. I've owned both.

KM of course wore them often as seen back in Mariupol 1941

Kölnische Illustrierte Zeitung October 1941
Mariupol Kurt Meyer October 1942.jpg

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#24

Post by rossmcpharter » 27 Aug 2014, 18:11

Thanks for that Eindhoven :) Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but didn't he deny wearing one in Normandy during his trial?

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#25

Post by seaburn » 27 Aug 2014, 22:05

You are quite correct 'RMP', Jan Jesionek gave evidence at KM's trial that on the 8th of June at the Abbey Ardenne Meyer was wearing 'A long vulcanized rubber coat in the monastery church, but Meyer said that he wore only his usual camouflage uniform his division wore at the time'. (Meeting of Generals page 362)

It wasn't clear in the book if KM meant on that particular day he was wearing his usual camouflage uniform or at that particular time period. As I'm not an expert on uniforms ,I'm not sure if Jesionek's description of the coat is the same type that KM is pictured in above. Interestingly, MW suffered that head wound in the first few days of battle so this picture was taken in and around that date.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#26

Post by Ste » 28 Aug 2014, 11:19

seaburn wrote:You are quite correct 'RMP', Jan Jesionek gave evidence at KM's trial that on the 8th of June at the Abbey Ardenne Meyer was wearing 'A long vulcanized rubber coat in the monastery church, but Meyer said that he wore only his usual camouflage uniform his division wore at the time'. (Meeting of Generals page 362)

It wasn't clear in the book if KM meant on that particular day he was wearing his usual camouflage uniform or at that particular time period. As I'm not an expert on uniforms ,I'm not sure if Jesionek's description of the coat is the same type that KM is pictured in above. Interestingly, MW suffered that head wound in the first few days of battle so this picture was taken in and around that date.

He suffered the head wound on 9.6.1944, so the picture was taken around that time.The men between Wünsche and Meyer should be Bernhard Krause.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#27

Post by seaburn » 07 Nov 2014, 16:02

seaburn wrote:
But this is what he said about his rank in that interrogation of Sept 7th 1945:

Q3. What is your rank?
A3. Standartenführer

Q4. When were you promoted to Standartenführer?
A4. 1st of August last year, I received the rank when I was not a prisoner.

I just came across a clarification of this point by Wünsche's in his re-interrogation notes from November '45 when he stated:

Question 4

I wish to add: 'When I was taken prisoner I still wore the insignia of an Obersturmbannführer but in captivity I was told by General Meyer and General Steiner that as of August 1st, I had been promoted to Standartenführer"

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#28

Post by eindhoven » 19 Sep 2015, 05:36

The original image posted at the top of the thread was part of a sequence taken by SS-KB used in Das Schwarze Korps zeitung. While it was not uncommon for them to doctor images I don't believe anything else was added outside of the Eichenlaub. Just my opinion of course.

The dichotomy of personality comes through in imagery. This image was taken on the same day by the same Kriegsberichter and I would venture presents a much more intense side of Max Wünsche. I cant help but imagine this look is the same he gave his captors.

Outside of Jefremowka I'd be interested to know anyone's thoughts about Wünsche's command of forced labor in Kharkov. As I do not want to derail this thread perhaps a PM will do. Has anyone else reviewed or seen the Soviet material regarding Wünsche? I was in Moscow this past February.
MW intensiv.jpg

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#29

Post by Reader3000 » 19 Sep 2015, 23:18

seaburn wrote:I agree that he was often photographed looking 'stern', especially at medal presentations during his adjutant days. 'Off duty' he tended to be more relaxed. I surmise that the prevailing opinion here is that this photograph was 'doctored' by the media of the time. I'm surprised it hasn't made its way into the public domain before now and even with its lack of authenticity, I still think that it is a picture of 'interest'.
Please note/keep in mind that most of the photos were made by officially embedded war photographers (Bildberichter in Propaganda-Kompanie) and what kind of picture the WSS and Wehrmacht in the war should represent. Photos where SS-Führer (not to use officers in contrast to the Heer) like Meyer and Wünsche are more relaxed often were made in more non-official circumstances.
Also note that all of the produced material had to be handed in to the Propagandaministerium by the field units of the Propaganda-Kompanie to be checked and censored if neccessary.

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Re: Picture of Max Wünsche with 'Oakleaves'

#30

Post by Reader3000 » 19 Sep 2015, 23:19

eindhoven wrote:The original image posted at the top of the thread was part of a sequence taken by SS-KB used in Das Schwarze Korps zeitung. While it was not uncommon for them to doctor images I don't believe anything else was added outside of the Eichenlaub. Just my opinion of course.

The dichotomy of personality comes through in imagery. This image was taken on the same day by the same Kriegsberichter and I would venture presents a much more intense side of Max Wünsche. I cant help but imagine this look is the same he gave his captors.

Outside of Jefremowka I'd be interested to know anyone's thoughts about Wünsche's command of forced labor in Kharkov. As I do not want to derail this thread perhaps a PM will do. Has anyone else reviewed or seen the Soviet material regarding Wünsche? I was in Moscow this past February.
MW intensiv.jpg
This would indeed be very interesting, so don't just PM, but write here or open a new topic.

On the coat: Also Hubert Meyer wore one in Normandy. The photo of Wünsche, Krause and K.Meyer appeared in the German edition of "Grenadiere", Km's book.

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