SS and Schutzpolizei RKT SS-Staf. Griese

Discussions on all aspects of the SS and Polizei. Hosted by Andrey.
Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002, 13:33
Location: Honduras

#16

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 14 Jun 2004, 01:54

Thanks Philmil .
So was the SS style ranks on police uniforms ,only for the generals who were also members of the SS ?

JoeW
Member
Posts: 1554
Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 06:14
Location: Midwest, USA

SS-Police

#17

Post by JoeW » 14 Jun 2004, 07:57

Phil, amazing facts and figures on the ORPO generals. The reason for the introduction of the SS-Police general collar tabs was not discussed in the unpublished order of Feb.1942. I would only speculate that Himmler wished to SS-Police rank/idenity uniformity for his generals who as HSSPF and SSPF commanded both SIPO and ORPO units within their respective jurisdictions.

Ostuf, I agree that Hohne's work is an excellent broad view of the history of the SS. He uses the work of many fine historians including Bucheim's work in "Anatomy of the SS State".

I guess I am confused about this entire tangent of discussion from the original thread of Griese. You posted some photographs of policemen/soldiers wearing helmets and decribed them as SS helmets and explained you theory of them. Then you asked for other opinions and proof. Of what. You indicated that you believed the helmets were issued to SS-Polizei Regiments when new helmets were issued in 1943. Is this correct? I thought at first you thought the insignia was changed too, but I may be mistaken. So only SS helmets were begun to be issued to SS-Polizei regiments and this is your theory. And you ask for proof of it being wrong. You offer only the evidence of your photos to support your theory.

I pointed out that according to decrees in the publications of the RFSSuCdDP, Schupo police units continued to be issued clothing displaying the police eagle and standard police rank insignia. With the single exception of the SS-Police generals. In the years of 1943 and 1944, there are no decrees indicating special insignia for the police regiment helmets, but there was for the sleeve insignia of the SS Police Regiments: the Polizei Regiment Todt became SS-Polizei Regiment Todt.
I believe your theory is not correct. I do not know what or how the "SS" helmets got to the "police" in your photographs. I leave that proof to you.
But in my view, all Schupo units, domestic or SS-Polizei regiments had the same helmets and uniform insignia.

I share some photographs of 1943-late 1944 of combat police formations wearing helmets with police insignia or no insignia. The photo with copyright was taken from the SS-Pol Geb Jag Rgt reunion book and is copyright. The Pol Rgt Todt photo and group of three police combat troopers was taken from the police magazine "Die Deutsche Polizei". The other photo is from my collection of Pol Frw. Btl in Yugoslavia.

I respect your viewpoint, but disagree as to your conclusion.

Does anyone have any further information on the SS rank mystery of Berhard Griese?
Attachments
Fall1944.jpg
Fall1944.jpg (47.11 KiB) Viewed 2215 times
Feb 1943.jpg
Feb 1943.jpg (79.14 KiB) Viewed 2215 times
PGJ18.jpg
PGJ18.jpg (28.46 KiB) Viewed 2217 times
Last edited by JoeW on 14 Jun 2004, 08:07, edited 1 time in total.


JoeW
Member
Posts: 1554
Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 06:14
Location: Midwest, USA

SS-Police

#18

Post by JoeW » 14 Jun 2004, 08:03

Here is the fourth photo.

Again, any help in solving the Griese SS rank mystery anyone?
Attachments
August1944.jpg
August1944.jpg (29.74 KiB) Viewed 2216 times

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002, 13:33
Location: Honduras

#19

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Jun 2004, 02:57

OK .Thanks for the answer .

I do not think that the SS style collar ranks for ORPO generals were made for the HSSPF ,since even if some police generals were at a time or other HSSPF in some place ,all the pictures I have shows HSSPFs in SS uniform .( and since sometimes some HSSPF were just not respected by the local BDS or Waffen-SS commander ,they had better too ... a regular police uniform would have lessened their influence ) So far I think that they were made for the police generals who were also members of the SS. By the way all the pics I have of police generals with these collar tabs on their police uniform also wears the SS oval emblem at the left pocket . By the way (2) ,which was the color of the background of the oval ,they were obviously not black ,and which was the color of the background of the SS style collar tabs ???? Here again it is not black .

The discussion : I thought it was an automatic equivalence of ranks ,as claimed in a specialized magazine ( the pic of Griese I scann) , after the Orpo police regiments were re-tittled SS Polizei . As evidence I was talking about those SS collar tabs and about those SS helmets . So far I think I was wrong ( after Phil’s message about the SS police generals and non SS police generals ). Now the mistery of the SS helmets as worn by some SS Polizei Schupo men at the end of the war (1944/45) remains intact ...
So I think my theory is the only logical one ...until one reader may give us another evidenced explaination .I think it was a special run made to shows that by now they were “SS” police - as their tittle says – and that the SS runes were on left side to difference them from the “normal” SS ,be it the Waffen-SS or the Sipo-SD .
But here ,again ,logic wasn’t one of the Third Reich’s strong points ....

I found very interesting the pics you scanned - thanks –
As evidenced by the profuse use of italian made Beretta 9mm submachine guns , a lot of those pics are from the zone of the West Italian /Slovenian Front were HSSPF –Trieste ( Oddilo Globocnick) had many SS Pol .regiments ( and smaller Orpo units) under his command .

I didn’t knew about the italian freiwilligen SS Polizei btl , and neither about the SS Polizei regiment Todt . How and where were they formed ? Why ? Names of the commanders ? Were did they fought ? (You said Yugoslavia ,but which zone ?)
And why were they allowed a special armband (Todt—any relation with the OT ?)
Any info welcome ....

Also I scann 3 pics that I think you don’t have :

- A North - caucasian volunteer of the Orpo .
- Santa Lucia d’Isonzo ,1944 , italian soldiers of the bersaglieri battalion “Mussolini” listen to a speech by an SS Stubaf . In background ,an adjutant-offizier of the Orpo SS Polizei rgt 10 or 14 8 both were attached to Globocnik’s command at this time .Griese had commanded the 10th SS Pol . Rgt in 1943 and was commander of the 14th rgt in 1944/45 .
- A pic of Col. B. Griese ,from the french magazine “39/45” n.90.The text reads : “This is not a WH officer ,but Oberst der Schutzpolizei Bernhard Griese ( by equivalence of ranks between the SS and the police ,he is also an SS Standartenfuehrer .) Griese received the Ritterkreuz while he commanded the Polizei Schuetzen Bataillon 323 , in May 1942 .” ..... this from an article about the SS Ritterkreuztraegern . By the way Griese appears also in the list of the SS Ritterkreuztraegern in the website http://www.waffen-SS.com , so if it was no automatic equivalence of ranks ,Griese was obviously a personal member of the SS ,so I don’t see where is the mistery everybody talks about ( !!???)
( But yes with still have a mistery with the helmets !)

Regards .
Attachments
Caucasian auxiliary of the Ordnungspolizei.jpg
Caucasian auxiliary of the Ordnungspolizei.jpg (40.83 KiB) Viewed 2168 times
foto89.jpg
foto89.jpg (59.21 KiB) Viewed 2165 times
Griese.jpg
Griese.jpg (25.37 KiB) Viewed 2164 times

JoeW
Member
Posts: 1554
Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 06:14
Location: Midwest, USA

Back to Griese

#20

Post by JoeW » 18 Jun 2004, 05:31

The Griese mystery is that no period documentation seems to be available to document his achieving SS membership or rank as SS Stf. The listings on the web, the French magazine you have and even in such books as "SS-Ritterkreuztraeger" from the 1950s are post-war works and offer no period documentation. I am sure there must be something out there, but nothing has surfaced except the notice of Griese's retirement as only an Oberst d. Schupo.

The Frew. Pol. Btl. was operating in the Polo Penninsula. The history of SS-Pol Rgt Todt is found in the copy of the SHAEF police book. The cuff title is interesting. Some are found with the SS runes added to the original bullion legend after Himmler's order.

The helmet question is interesting, but your theory is not logical when you think about the logistics. A special helmet is to be created and issued to those members of the newly titled SS-Police Regiments who have not already been issued standard helmets with police decals when members of the prior Police Batallions? That would drive the Beschaffungsämter crazy. How many to order, who and where? Your photos provides no such evidence. Any supposed use of SS helmets by SS-Police units can only be an anomaly and really unexplainable, but interesting.

User avatar
Michael Miller
Forum Staff
Posts: 9023
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:05
Location: California
Contact:

Griese - SS?

#21

Post by Michael Miller » 20 Jul 2004, 18:29

Just bumping this back to the top as I'd like to see the mystery of "Griese- SS member or not?" solved once and for all. Until we see a photo of Griese without his greatcoat, thus exposing "SS" runes on the left side of his tunic, I don't think the question will be answered. He doesn't appear in the SS-DAL of 09.11.1944 (RF-SS - SS-Staf.), though it seems that if he was an SS-Staf., he would have been promoted to that rank well before that date.

Best,
~ Mike

Max Williams
Member
Posts: 11158
Joined: 04 Feb 2003, 17:57
Location: South UK

#22

Post by Max Williams » 20 Jul 2004, 21:24

Mike,
As requested. Here is Griese without greatcoat. Unfortunately, he is on the end of my photo and the shadow falls across his tunic just in the wrong place. However, I've examined it in greater detail and it's my opinion he does not wear SS runes below his left breast pocket.
Max
Attachments
Griese.jpg
Griese.jpg (25.89 KiB) Viewed 2047 times

User avatar
Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 9947
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 14:04
Location: France
Contact:

#23

Post by Georges JEROME » 20 Jul 2004, 22:47

Griese was never SS member during his active service.
No picture of him with SS rune on uniform
on 1942 : Jost Schneider give RK : 3.5.42 als Major der (Schupo)Polizei u kdr Polizei-Bat 323

re generals der Orpo we had numerous discussions with Philmil about this topic, our analysis is clear :

from 1942 the use of SS badge style for collar patches uniformized all generals of the german police network :

- HSSPF and SSPF who were (mainly) SS with a police general rank by equivalence
- SIPO - SD generals who were SD (SS) or SIPO (civil servant)
- Orpo generals were civil servant (unless some rare SS appointed in Orpo like Reinefarth, Schmelcher...)

JoeW
Member
Posts: 1554
Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 06:14
Location: Midwest, USA

#24

Post by JoeW » 21 Jul 2004, 22:46

I agree that he retired a policeman only and non-ss. But Schneider did list him with SS membership in his book. The photo above was taken at the RK award ceremony? Is he a Major or Obstlt in the photo? The RK postcards are of later date and do not show the runes as I wrote above.

HM
Member
Posts: 1572
Joined: 20 Sep 2003, 09:12
Location: Netherlands

Re: SS and Schutzpolizei RKT Staf Griese

#25

Post by HM » 12 Dec 2008, 23:04

enjoy this beautiful picture of Griese from the Bundesarchiv

HM.
Attachments
420px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_121-1399%2C_Bernhard_Griese.jpg
420px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_121-1399%2C_Bernhard_Griese.jpg (36.92 KiB) Viewed 1525 times

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 8002
Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 20:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: SS and Schutzpolizei RKT Staf Griese

#26

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 21 Oct 2009, 14:18

Bernhard Griese...

Source : "German Security and Police Soldier 1939-45" from Osprey
Attachments
Bernhard Griese.jpg
Bernhard Griese.jpg (32.26 KiB) Viewed 1353 times

User avatar
Michael Miller
Forum Staff
Posts: 9023
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:05
Location: California
Contact:

SS Membership Confirmation at Last...

#27

Post by Michael Miller » 18 Apr 2014, 06:31

I've had this photo for years and only now noticed something very unique about it: The Sigrune patch!

So... there it is.

Best wishes,
~ Mike
Attachments
Griese_07b.jpg
Griese_07b.jpg (34.8 KiB) Viewed 1061 times
Griese_07a.jpg
Griese_07a.jpg (68.5 KiB) Viewed 1061 times

User avatar
Michael Miller
Forum Staff
Posts: 9023
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:05
Location: California
Contact:

Griese - Definitive evidence of SS membership

#28

Post by Michael Miller » 19 Apr 2014, 20:40

I'm going to give this a *bump*, on account of my belief that this is kind of a big deal (please tell me if I'm wrong :o)

~ Mike

User avatar
Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 9947
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 14:04
Location: France
Contact:

Re: SS and Schutzpolizei RKT Staf Griese

#29

Post by Georges JEROME » 20 Apr 2014, 02:13

interesting data Mike. This reactived (a.W.) schupo officer who won RKT appear in glossary of RRL 9/1943 but not in RRL 9/44. And don't appear in DAL 1944/1. perhaps some "Uniformträger" ?

pic of Alirafikkhan is Heinrich Hannibal.

Georges

BB-WA
Member
Posts: 256
Joined: 04 Jan 2008, 15:13
Location: Albany, Western Australia

Re: SS and Schutzpolizei RKT Staf Griese

#30

Post by BB-WA » 20 Apr 2014, 08:28

Hi Mike
I have enlarged your photos as much as I can and I don't think its a Sigrune patch. My reason on magnification it casts a shadow on his tunic the same direction as his other medals, whereas the patch was sown on. If someone has his awards list it may shed some light on what it is?
Just my 2 cents worth.

Regards
Brian

Post Reply

Return to “The Phil Nix SS & Polizei section”