An Hungarian Marder?

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magicdragon
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An Hungarian Marder?

#1

Post by magicdragon » 28 Aug 2015, 23:00

I came across an interesting article on why the Hungarians never developed a Marder type tank destroyer from their indigenous Toldi tank chassis.

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/06/18/hung ... z-project/

To paraphrase the Toldi I torsion bar was unsuitable for the weight of a heavier anti-tank gun and the Toldi IIa chassis while it could have coped with the extra weight would have struggled to accommodate the gun and ammo on the chassis. Added to the fact that the prototype was developed after the destruction of 2nd Hungarian Army on the Don and the value of a Marder type platform was diminishing you can understand the logic Hungarian decision not to take the idea further?

However, were there other options?

1. Was there another chassis other that the Panzer II and Panzer 38t which could have been adapted and available to the Hungarians?
2. Was there another anti tank gun which they could have used and was have been available and operational in late 1942 for the army on the Don and list enough to be used on the Toldi I chassis i.e. 7.5 cm Pak 97/38?

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: An Hungarian Marder?

#2

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 Aug 2015, 09:01

I would disagree with your point about the value of a Marder type platform diminishing. A Marder type platform was always going to be better than a towed gun and not as good as a Jagdpanzer type of platform.
Alan


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Leo Niehorster
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Re: An Hungarian Marder?

#3

Post by Leo Niehorster » 29 Aug 2015, 09:04

Well, there was the self-propelled AA/AT gun (Nimród) with similar components to the Toldi. However, the weight and size of the (merely 40mm) antiaircraft gun was such that that chassis was longer to accommodate it. So putting a heavier and larger weapon — like the 75mm/76.2mm antitank gun or the even heavier Hungarian-made 80mm antiaircraft gun — on the shorter Toldi (whether Type I or II) would have required even more serious modifications. And, as mentioned, there were the serious suspension problems of the Toldi I light tanks.

I am not sure that the self-propelled antitank gun (Toldi páncélvadász) would have avoided suspension problems in any event, and anyway, by the time they got around to producing the prototype in late Autumn 1943, the Hungarians had the 75mm gun version of their assault gun (Zrínyi) on the drawing boards, (based on the medium tank Turán). And they never got that into production. Anyway, by mid-1944, production capacity in Hungary was not available for the 75mm assault gun let alone a SP'd AT.

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magicdragon
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Re: An Hungarian Marder?

#4

Post by magicdragon » 30 Aug 2015, 01:43

I would disagree with your point about the value of a Marder type platform diminishing. A Marder type platform was always going to be better than a towed gun and not as good as a Jagdpanzer type of platform.
Alan, I was being quite generous to the Hungarian Army but there may be other factors a) the Hungarians were not planning a substantial combat role on the Eastern Front in rest of 1943 after the disaster on the Don b) as Leo Niehorster stated the development of the Zrínyi assault gun based on the Turan chassis would appear to be better option (if they had built it). To me the development or availability of sufficient Marder type of vehicles equipped with viable anti-tank gun was the only way to minimise the calamity on the Don for both the Hungarians and the Rumanian's. The Germans would never have supplied sufficient Panzer III, Panzer IV or Stug IIIs to give every Axis division on the Don Front a fighting chance of offering a viable defence against a serious armoured attack. Even if the armies had been pushed back small battle groups built around the Marders may have inflicted casualties on the Soviet army or at least given more troops Hungarian and Rumanian' troops cover to escape west?

OldBill
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Re: An Hungarian Marder?

#5

Post by OldBill » 30 Aug 2015, 22:52

Another option would have been to use the Turan chasis to mount a larger gun in a armored open topped superstructure, like the Marder. Designing a turret to take a larger gun and redesigning the turret ring (not to mention manufacturing it) is much harder than making an open topped SPG. Probably not as good as a Zrinyi with a Pak 40, but better than a short 75 or 40mm.

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