Most important ally of Germany on the Eastern Front?

[Victor]

I'm gonig with Finland because I've read the stories about 'brave' combat of the romanians.

Stories of soviet artillery cannons, with no infantry support, that romanian soldiers couldn't even take out in '42.

Adolf Hitler was none to pleased with them. He screamed and raved like a madman when he found out; "those peices of romanian garbage haulers!" and "those little shi**y greasy slavs!".

- MVSN

And would you care to share with us those stories? :roll:

[Harri]

I'm a bit "late woke up" in this discussion but I try to sum up figures that speak for Finland.

First of all, in 1941 Finland had 16 Infantry Divisions and 3(4) Light brigades. In 1944 Finnish Army had 13 (IIRC) Infantry Divisions, one Armoured Division and about 6 Infantry or Light brigades. Finnish manpower was well comparable to the Rumanian one. Compared to the population Finnish Army was much bigger.

Finnish Army was well trained especially for forest combat. Finnish 9 mm m/31 Suomi SMG was probably the best of the kind in such battles. Also Finnish 81 mm and 120 mm Tampella mortars and semi-automatic 20 mm Lahti L-39 AT rifle were the finest in the world with high accuracy and long range. Finnish heavy Maxim m/32 MG with tripod was accelerated and had a rate of fire of 1200 rds/minute (usually 600 rds/min) and equipped with metallic belt (usually fabric belt).

State Aircraft Factory (VL) of Finland produced several new aircraft types, licence-built and repaired hudreds of planes in the 1930's and 1940's including:
- 30 VL Tuisku [Blizzard] trainers
- 21 VL Viima II [Strong Wind] trainers
- 41 VL Pyry I [Whirling Snow] trainers
- 51 ill-fated VL Myrsky II [Storm] fighters
- licence-built 90 Fokker D.XXI fighters
- licence-built 35 Fokker C.X dive bombers
- licence-built 55 Bristol Blenheim I and IV bombers
- re-built 17 Tupolev SB bombers
Tampella also licence-built and repaired aircraft engines like Bristol Mercury.

All weapons obtained from Germany (except 15 second hand Dornier Do 17Zs) were bought, not given half-free or free.

Finnish Air Force had top quality pilots although most of our planes were obsolescent. Finnish Field Artillery used the most modern firing methods including barrages of one artillery battalion and random artillery group (up to more than 20 artillery/mortar battalions) within the range of target. Only US Army used similar kind of methods during WW II. Finnish radio intelligence was highly developed and co-operated with German and Japanese intelligencies.

Also Finnish guerrilla and long-range patrolling activities were of high quality. Finnish guerrillas cut Murmansk railway several times during the war. Finnish light-weight guerrilla radio called Kyynel [Tear] was very advanced in the 1940's. It weighted about the half of the other similar radios used in Germany, USSR and Britain. Also about 100 were delivered to Sweden during the war.

Finland delivered about 75% of Germans' need of nickel ore which was highly important to their militay industry. Also copper and other more unusual metals were delivered. Wood, pulp (for making explosives) and paper were also important supplies to Germans. Finnish shipyards delivered also ships to Germans (submarine net layers for example).

Further questions:
- How many Soviet aircraft Rumanian pilots shot down, how about their own losses?
- How Germans rated Romanians and Finns?
- Where there any special forces (guerrillas) in Rumanian Army?
- How many aircraft Rumanian factories built during the just prior and during the war?
- What else than oil did Rumania supply to Germany during the war?

[Harri]

I was using those 3 examples because quantively the Finnish had nothing of homegrown origin of comparable quality.

...the fact is that Romania provided more manpower & reasources to the EF than Finland. Romanian troops were more active in the field (In General), than Finland, it managed in the 3 examples I gave to produce decent weapons to which Finalnd had nothing similar.

the raw materials provided by Finland in no way compare to the Oil etc provided by Romania and what the potential effect that would hve had if it had been denied to them.

Andy, see my post above and be surprised...
Italy offered even more manpower (not in east front) and...the results speak for themselves...Football is their "sport" (Italy - Finland 2 - 0), like of the Romanians too...

The feats by Romanian Army have been listed and given there relative poor leadership and equipment they are a true testament to the Rumanian soldier.

The overall features of the Finnish Army have always been high morale, incompliance, individual skills and leadership. All Finnish equipment weren't either very good or modern but usually quite serviceable and suitable to our tactics and training.

Casualties Finnish troops suffered tell clearly that the battles in 1941 - 1942 and 1944 were fierce. Finnish Army was although never bet and Soviet troops never managed to destroy a single Finnish infantry battalion in combat. How many Rumanian divisions or bigger formations were destroyed during the WW II?

The highest Finnish officer captured during the war war a Major who was captured only because he was seriously wounded in combat. On the other had Finns destroyed several Soviet divisions in 1941 and 1944. Highest capured Soviet officer was division commander Maj.Gen. Kirpitshnikov.

In 1944 Finns faced Soviet XXX Guards Army Corps which was counted one of their best by Germans. It was although stopped in Karelian Isthmus. Finnish Radio Intelligence captured this message which was sent by the commander of the XXX GAC: "Advancing is quite impossible due to extremely hard and accurate Finnish artillery fire never seen before."

[Mark V]

I was using those 3 examples because quantively the Finnish had nothing of homegrown origin of comparable quality.

See my post above and be surprised...

Harri,

Good post, but let me have some input too:

- 37mm AT-guns, 105 mm howitzers and 40mm AA-guns (Bofors designs) were build by Finns, all were among the best guns of their class in the world at that time
- Finnish M39 rifle, one of the best bolt-action service rifles ever made was our standard military rifle
- Finns developed indigenous 75mm AT-gun that had better perfomance than PaK-40, though it was too late in war to be produced
- Finns developed also second indigenous fighter aircraft, VL Pyörremyrsky (powered by DB605), too late for war though..
- Harri said Finnish long-range patrols were high-quality, which could be described as an serious understatement - they were much better than that. Foot patrols reached as far as Plesetsk (hundreds of kilometres behind even Murmansk railway), the future place of Northern Cosmodrome. Finnish Army was only combatant in eastern front that had the expertise to routinely patrol behind Soviet lines in the depth of hundreds of kilometres and duration of even 6-8 weeks. Others tried also - but their patrols never returned to home...
- MTBs of "Taisto" (Battle) class, build during the war, were among the fastest, if not the fastest in the world, and proved very effective during war. Officially 48 knots, but during the tests 60 knots was reportedly reached
- indigenously developed double barreled 20mm AA-gun, 20 ItK/40 VKT "Vekotin" (Gadget), which had much better firepower than German guns of same calibre was valuable addition to the anti-aircraft firepower of our troops in later years of Continuation War
- Finns received radar equipment (from Germany) among the first countres outside big powers in 1943. Nothing special about that, but just one year later Finns gave demostration how that equipment should be used. During strategic bombing raids of ADD (which were effectively repulsed by radar-controlled Finnish AAA) - the Swedish visitors that we had in our aerial-defence command center were "shocked and awed" by the effectiveness and cool expertise of Finnish AA-defence (after they got to home - they immediately started the total re-evaluation of their own aerial defence)

... just to name few.


Mark V

[Wolfgang H]

The Finns were the ones who plagued the Russians from the start of the war when the Russians attempted to invade Finland. The Romanians were simply there to make up numbers. They were about as useful to the Germans as the Italians were!!!

[Mark V]

In 1944 Finns faced Soviet XXX Guards Army Corps which was counted one of their best by Germans. It was although stopped in Karelian Isthmus. Finnish Radio Intelligence captured this message which was sent by the commander of the XXX GAC: "Advancing is quite impossible due to extremely hard and accurate Finnish artillery fire never seen before."

Little bit more about radio-intelligence:

It is a historical fact that Finnish radio intelligence during WW2 was among the best in world.

Finns suplied to Germans very valuable intelligence information about intentions of Soviet (and others Allied ) forces all around eastern front. This information also included information about Allied convoys in Arctic and warnings about threatening Soviet attacks against Germans in eastern front.

When war ended started a urgent operation - "Stella Polaris" - which purpose was to move the information about Soviet Union accumulated during decades into safety in Sweden. This material proved to be very valuable to Swedish Intelligence (and through it also to NATO) during the first decade of Cold War. Before that insight supplied by Finns western allied knowledge about Soviet Union was almost nonexistant. NATO countries did also their best in trying to recruit former Finnish patrolmens into new reconnaissance patrols deep into Soviet territory - most refused, though few continued their wartime job in the payroll of NATO. On the other hand many Finnish intelligence and special operations experts did move to west after armistice in 1944, where almost all of them were immediately recruited to serve in United States Army.

Regards, Mark V

[Harri]

Mark V:

I didn't bother to mention all I know, just a few of the best or most important weapons. Anyway this will not support claims that Finland would have been almost useless ally of Germany. Also claiming that we didn't have own indigenous weapons and inventions worth mentioning is quite far from the truth.

For example m/31 SMGs were licence produced also in Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland during the war. Total production in Finland was more than 60.000 pcs and they are still used by FDF because of their high quality (parts are interchangeable between guns). Production abroads was even bigger than that. Also 105 mm howitzers m/37 (about 130 pcs) which were developed with Swedish Bofors and produced in Finland is worth mentioning. Its maximum firing range was 12.5 km, also longer that that of German 105 mm howitzer. (The last of these modernized 105 H 61-37 artillery pieces will be replaced by the new Finnish 155 K 98 model during this decade. Maximum range is now over 42 km using its basic ammunition.)

It is a historical fact that Finnish radio intelligence during WW2 was among the best in world.

Finns suplied to Germans very valuable intelligence information about intentions of Soviet (and others Allied ) forces all around eastern front. This information also included information about Allied convoys in Arctic and warnings about threatening Soviet attacks against Germans in eastern front.

True.

Soviets used radios very recklessly and formally which occasionally led to the situation where Finns could read almost all Soviet sendings. Also their "radio silence" method prior to large attacks revealed that something is going on soon. For example all the attacks of ADD (long-range strategic bomber force) were "heard" beforehand and if their weather reconnaissance aircrafts (usually single fast high flying Pe-2s) were seen (with radar) their targets were easy to guess like happened in February/March 1944 when they tried to attack against Helsinki.

After these attacks a Soviet "spy" who now worked for the Finnish intelligence send a message that Helsinki was badly destroyed. He was even awarded high Soviet decoration like to the leaders of ADD as well. Col. "Joppe" Karhunen says in his book that after the war one Soviet colonel gave his high medal to him when he realized that Finns had cheated them!!

When war ended started a urgent operation - "Stella Polaris" - which purpose was to move the information about Soviet Union accumulated during decades into safety in Sweden. This material proved to be very valuable to Swedish Intelligence (and through it also to NATO) during the first decade of Cold War. Before that insight supplied by Finns western allied knowledge about Soviet Union was almost nonexistant. NATO countries did also their best in trying to recruit former Finnish patrolmens into new reconnaissance patrols deep into Soviet territory - most refused, though few continued their wartime job in the payroll of NATO. On the other hand many Finnish intelligence and special operations experts did move to west after armistice in 1944, where almost all of them were immediately recruited to serve in United States Army.

In 1941 Finns also captured partly burnt Soviet code book in Lapland which was among the papers of Stella Polaris. This book has helped uncovering several WW II era Soviet spyes in USA at least until the 1980's. As far as I know tens of thousands recorded WW II era code messages which were impossible to solve earlier were later unraveled using computers.

NATO used volunteer Finnish patrolmen because they were seldom caught in USSR unlike the others. It is although known that a few Finns were killed during these top secret missions. Most of these were organized by the Norwegians but Finns were also re-trained (:roll:) in USA. Hundreds of Finnish intelligence experts worked for NATO, USA or Sweden after WW II.

[Mark V]

re-trained (:roll:) in USA.

Yeah Harri,

All that US could taught to these men (most of them had spend months behind Soviet lines during WW2) was to how to use US communications equipment and codes...

Actually it was on the contrary. When the US Special Forces were founded a large part of teachers in Fort Bragg were Finns.

Mark V

[Mark V]

For example m/31 SMGs were licence produced also in Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland during the war. Total production in Finland was more than 60.000 pcs and they are still used by FDF because of their high quality (parts are interchangeable between guns). Production abroads was even bigger than that.

And Finns also exported that weapon during the war !! (as a payment for needed raw-materials) - it was really hard currency during WW2...

Overall, i think we have thrown the claim that Finland was somewhat backward country during WW2 to where it belongs - a rubbish bin. In many areas Finns, though we were/are very small nation, had technology and expertise that was unsurpassed to any participant of war.

Finland was not good ally to Germans, but that was because we had our own objectives of war, and good so. We are still here, but 3rd Reich is not.

Mark V

[Victor]

- How many Soviet aircraft Rumanian pilots shot down, how about their own losses?

That question is pretty difficult to answer, because a part of the archives burned after the war, some were confiscated by the Soviets (like the entire operations log of the Seaplane Flotilla for example) and there are many more, which have not been studied yet. I cannot give exact figures.

1941: 215 Soviet a/c destroyed, 40 losses
1942: 71 a/c destroyed, 26 lost in combat (others were abandoned during the retreat from Stalingrad)
1943: N/A (see http://www.arr.go.ro/g7vt.htm which was practically the only Romanian fighter unit on the front in 1943, except for the 49th FS in Crimea)
1944: N/A

For AAA I have a general figure, which also includes USAAF and Luftwaffe: 1110

How Germans rated Romanians and Finns?

That depends on the Germans. Probably those who had interacted more with the Romanians preferred the Romanians (Manstein for example), just like those who collaborated more with the Finns preferred the Finns.

- Where there any special forces (guerrillas) in Rumanian Army?

No. Troops infiltrated behind Soviet lines during offensive actions, but no actual guerilla style warfare.

- How many aircraft Rumanian factories built during the just prior and during the war?

- fighters:
95 P.11f
25 P.24E
450 IAR-80/81

-bombers:
36 JRS-79B
36 JRS-79B1

-observation:
50 IAR-37
75 IAR-38
255 IAR-39

-seaplanes
8 SET-4H/7H
5 S.62bis

-trainers
80 IAR 27
60 SET-7K
over 330 Fleet F-10G
40 Nardi FN-305 II
34 Nardi FN-305 A
80 Fi-156Ca3

Total: 1659 (from 1936 to 1944)

- What else than oil did Rumania supply to Germany during the war?

I do not have too much data on that.

Grain: 85,000 railcars (10 tons each)
Wood: 10,000 railcars/year

As for the comment about Finland not getting anything for free, the same can be said about Romania. Even worse. The Germans paid for everything they bought at pre-war prices, while Romania bought from Germany at the real price (because of the inflation).

Finnish manpower was well comparable to the Rumanian one. Compared to the population Finnish Army was much bigger.

It was somewhat comparable, but it was deployed close to home, not hundreds of kms away. Btw, what was the size of a Finnish infantry division in 1941?

Finnish Army was although never bet and Soviet troops never managed to destroy a single Finnish infantry battalion in combat. How many Rumanian divisions or bigger formations were destroyed during the WW II?

The terrain in which those battles took place did not really allow for large Soviet deep penetration operations and encirclement of units with low mobility. Do not compare the conditions in Finland with the Kalmuk steppe for example. It is by no chance the same thing.

[Victor]

The Romanians were simply there to make up numbers. They were about as useful to the Germans as the Italians were!!!

These are exactly the kind of comments that make me because of which I do not enjoy this type of polls.

[Witch-King of Angmar]

The Romanians were simply there to make up numbers. They were about as useful to the Germans as the Italians were!!!

Erich von Manstein and Hans Speidel would have disagreed...

Finnish M39 rifle, one of the best bolt-action service rifles ever made was our standard military rifle

..I'd rate the "Czech Mauser" ZB vz. 24 as the best bolt-action rifle ever made - too bad we didn't have a Simo Häyhä to fire it..

Finns developed indigenous 75mm AT-gun that had better perfomance than PaK-40, though it was too late in war to be produced

..from some point of view, the 75mm Resita DT-UDR md. 1943 would be also superior to both PaK-40 and ZiS-3 - plus it was produced in quantity(216 examples)

But we do not talk here "who had the best engineers and inventors" - from this point of view the Italians had some brilliant ones, but to which use? :roll:

The most important issue, carefully avoided by our Finnish friends here, is what did actually the Finns to earn the title "most important allies of Germany on the Soviet Front 1941-1944" - and sorry, they didn't do too much, they fought a parallel war:

Finland was not good ally to Germans, but that was because we had our own objectives of war, and good so. We are still here, but 3rd Reich is not.

Emphase is mine

Finland had already gambled everything desperately on one card - but this was in 1939; between 1941-1944 they were far more careful :roll:

~The White Trash

PS I would feel sorry to get a steamy and fiery answer to this post - the Finns are IMO the most admirable European nation

[Witch-King of Angmar]

As for the comment about Finland not getting anything for free, the same can be said about Romania. Even worse. The Germans paid for everything they bought at pre-war prices, while Romania bought from Germany at the real price (because of the inflation).

For some of the goods the Reich acquired from Romania, the German government had paid in gold bullion, later confiscated by the Soviet occupants - which arise the question: just where did Hitler got so much gold that he could afford this? (hint: Walter Funk coud have given an answer - especially with his nervous breakdown during the Nuremberg Trial. A bon entendeur, salut. )

~The White Trash

[Mark V]

..from some point of view, the 75mm Resita DT-UDR md. 1943 would be also superior to both PaK-40 and ZiS-3 - plus it was produced in quantity(216 examples)

I know about Resita. Actually my point was exactly that - to make a comparison to that Romanian weapon. Both countries could develope similariry complex weapon systems.

But we do not talk here "who had the best engineers and inventors" - from this point of view the Italians had some brilliant ones, but to which use? :roll:

Exactly.

The most important issue, carefully avoided by our Finnish friends here, is what did actually the Finns to earn the title "most important allies of Germany on the Soviet Front 1941-1944" - and sorry, they didn't do too much, they fought a parallel war:

Finland had already gambled everything desperately on one card - but this was in 1939; between 1941-1944 they were far more careful :roll:

If asked to me i gladly give the credit of being the most important ally of Germany during WW2 to Romania. I just answered to the unsubstantiated claim that Finland was in some way inferior technologically. I guess no one is even trying to claim that we were inferior in our fighting skill...

We didn't gamble anything during 1939. We lived our lives in peace and were attacked by imperialistic and aggressive superpower.

In 1941 we were more or less pushed to war (which was much more gamble in our part than 1939) and fought the war to get our own territory back and beyond that defendable lines, but not the war that Germans would have wanted us to do. If we would have pressed our offensive in 1941-42 Leningrad would propably had fallen and railway-lines between Murmansk and Soviet heartland would have been broken - so what ?? Looking in hindsight, it would not had changed the eventual outcome of war against Soviet Union, just somewhat postponed the German defeat. But to us, it would have ment the end of nation... Our leadership was wise and above all far-sighted.

PS I would feel sorry to get a steamy and fiery answer to this post - the Finns are IMO the most admirable European nation

Thanks. Nothing steamy about above, i think ??

Mark V

[Mark V]

The terrain in which those battles took place did not really allow for large Soviet deep penetration operations and encirclement of units with low mobility. Do not compare the conditions in Finland with the Kalmuk steppe for example. It is by no chance the same thing.

Well, the terrain never prevented us to encircle Soviet divisions and destroy them. Winter or summer, in strategic defence or offensive - we did it in all circumstances spanning in timeframe of 5 years...

Mark V