Most important ally of Germany on the Eastern Front?

[Mark V]

..I'd rate the "Czech Mauser" ZB vz. 24 as the best bolt-action rifle ever made - too bad we didn't have a Simo Häyhä to fire it..

Hi,

I don't fall to comparing Finnish M39 to vz. 24 Mauser that was used by Romanians - both were excellent weapons, and both surely on Top-10 of bolt-action magazine rifles ever made, but...

The weapon used by Simo Häyhä was not the standard military rifle. Häyhä was a member of "Suojeluskunta" (National Guard) who had their own rifles which they did bring to the front. Members of Suojeluskunta prided about their skills in shooting and mostly had rifles that were more or less "tweaked" (strictly forbidden in Army) to their preferences, alltough the basic rifle model was always selected by authorities. Suojeluskunta ordered the rifles according their own preferences and with their own money. For example the barrels had slightly smaller calibre to improve accuracy - which ofcource during the war somewhat complicated the ammunition supply as poor quality Soviet ammo didn't fit to these weapons as well as they did to M39.

Overall, i don't think Häyhä would had used standard vz. 24 if you would had offered it to him.

Mark V

BTW. All of you hunters here propably know a weapons manufacturer SAKO. Guess what the name means..

Answer: Suojeluskuntain Ase- ja Konepaja = Sako (National Guards Weapon and Machine Workshop)... Some heritage is still alive, if only in the name...

[Victor]

Well, the terrain never prevented us to encircle Soviet divisions and destroy them. Winter or summer, in strategic defence or offensive - we did it in all circumstances spanning in timeframe of 5 years...

Were these done by mechanized troops or by infantry?
I suspect it was by the latter.

Btw, you have not answered my question.

[Harri]

Thank you for your thorough answer, Victor. Your aircraft procduction was much bigger than I knew.

Actually many projects of State Aircraft Factory were delayed or cancelled because factory repaired also damaged (or sometimes nearly destroyed) aircraft. Also the lack of modern fighter engines and aluminium plates was a problem because Germans refused to sell enough of these.

As for the comment about Finland not getting anything for free, the same can be said about Romania. Even worse. The Germans paid for everything they bought at pre-war prices, while Romania bought from Germany at the real price (because of the inflation).

Finns were more cunning again: we didn't pay at once. Most weapons Finland obtained from Germany were bought and financed using loans. So actually we didn't pay anything to Germans during the war, but we had to pay that sum to USSR after the war as war indemnity!!! The cunning part was that all weapons were bought through a private firm led by a former Finnish officer who "forget" his accounts a bit (- 50%) .

It was somewhat comparable, but it was deployed close to home, not hundreds of kms away. Btw, what was the size of a Finnish infantry division in 1941?

The majority of Finnish Army (2/3) was located to East Karelia several hundreds kms away from the old year 1939 border and even further to current border. That area was conquered by the Finns during four months.

I don't have map with me right now but I know that the "fast" passenger train from the capital of East Karelia Äänislinna (Petrozavodsk) ran 24 hours to the capital of Finland, Helsinki. If the speed of the train had been only 40 km/h (like it was those days) then the distance between these two towns would have been about 1000 km. About half of that distance was in current Finnish soil. Both flanks were even hundreds of kilometres farther away.

The size of the Finnish infantry division in 1941 was about 16.400 men. In 1944 division lacked one infantry regiment and had about 14.500 men but their fire power was improved due to heavier AT weapons, artillery pieces and tripled number of SMGs. Armoured Division had about 8.000 to 10.000 men only and brigades about 5.000 - 8.000 men.

The terrain in which those battles took place did not really allow for large Soviet deep penetration operations and encirclement of units with low mobility. Do not compare the conditions in Finland with the Kalmuk steppe for example. It is by no chance the same thing.

In Finland open and flat landscape is considered easier than the Finnish landscape with lots of small streams, rivers, lakes, hills, vast forests and especially endless many kinds of passable or impassable swamps. Finnish terrain is very demanding especially to the attacker but the defender needs lots of special skills and equipment too.

In Finland temperature varies between -50 to +35 degrees C but everything must work in any conditions - and it works. Snowlayer during winters is about 60 to 150 cm.

Finnish troops were fast and mobile despite of the lack of larger motorized formations: they used bicycles! Finnish units had also an amazing ability to pass through almost any landscape they were ordered to - even areas without roads.

[Harri]

Well, the terrain never prevented us to encircle Soviet divisions and destroy them. Winter or summer, in strategic defence or offensive - we did it in all circumstances spanning in timeframe of 5 years...

Were these done by mechanized troops or by infantry?
I suspect it was by the latter.

Btw, you have not answered my question.

I didn't wrote that quote. It was Mark V.

Finland didn't have large amounts of mechanized troops during the war, but there were about company sized motorized units (usually Companies of divisional Light Detachment which all were disbanded in 1942 and Engineer Companies) and one Armoured Battalion. Soldiers of Finnish fast troops were called Jägers. Jäger unist consisted mainly of young conscripts and they were equipped with bicycles.

Also a few Frontier Guard Jäger Companies (later Battalions) were equipped in a similar way. Units of "Frontier Guard" were trained to patrol wide gaps between manned areas and flanks. They were also specialized to guerrilla and anti-partisan activities.

In 1941 we had two Jäger Brigades (both with three Jäger Battalions ). Two Jäger Battalions and 2nd Jäger Brigade were disbanded in 1942. Staff/2.Jäg.Brig. became the Staff/Armoured Division and (1.)Jäg.Brig. was attached to Armoured Division having four (2. - 5.) Jäger Battalions.

Cavalry Brigade consisted of Häme Mounted Regiment, Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment and 1st Jäger Battalion. Regiments were reinforced light battalions in size and equipped with horses until 1943 and later with bicycles. A new 6th Jäger Battalion was attached to Cav.Brig. in 1944.

[Victor]

I didn't wrote that quote. It was Mark V.

Sorry.

The size of the Finnish infantry division in 1941 was about 16.400 men. In 1944 division lacked one infantry regiment and had about 14.500 men but their fire power was improved due to heavier AT weapons, artillery pieces and tripled number of SMGs. Armoured Division had about 8.000 to 10.000 men only and brigades about 5.000 - 8.000 men.

A similar decision was taken by the Romanian army after the 1941 campaign. The infantry division was reduced in size from 17,500 to 13,500 men, but the overall firepower was increased, although the heavy AT artillery was still insufficient.

[Juha Tompuri]

- Finns developed indigenous 75mm AT-gun that had better perfomance than PaK-40, though it was too late in war to be produced
Mark V

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

The weapon used by Simo Häyhä was not the standard military rifle. Häyhä was a member of "Suojeluskunta" (National Guard) who had their own rifles which they did bring to the front. Members of Suojeluskunta prided about their skills in shooting and mostly had rifles that were more or less "tweaked" (strictly forbidden in Army) to their preferences, alltough the basic rifle model was always selected by authorities. Suojeluskunta ordered the rifles according their own preferences and with their own money. For example the barrels had slightly smaller calibre to improve accuracy - which ofcource during the war somewhat complicated the ammunition supply as poor quality Soviet ammo didn't fit to these weapons as well as they did to M39.

Overall, i don't think Häyhä would had used standard vz. 24 if you would had offered it to him.

Mark V

BTW. All of you hunters here propably know a weapons manufacturer SAKO. Guess what the name means..

Answer: Suojeluskuntain Ase- ja Konepaja = Sako (National Guards Weapon and Machine Workshop)... Some heritage is still alive, if only in the name...

[Baldemar]

I would have to go with Finlandia. They were the most professional and had very strategic points to protect in the north.

[Mark V]

I would have to go with Finlandia. They were the most professional and had very strategic points to protect in the north.

Many would go with Finlandia - as it is Vodka-brand, not a country.

Mark V

[Victor]

Many would go with Finlandia - as it is Vodka-brand, not a country.

Mark V

And a good one too

[Baldemar]

Many would go with Finlandia - as it is Vodka-brand, not a country.

Mark V

And a good one too

I prefer Smirnoff.

[emerigo]

Sorry Idon't vote, because this is unfair.
As far as I know you didn't mention Italy, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia.

[Harri]

Emerigo, you should have voted Finns just because we are relative nations...but don't tell anyone else...

[Juha Tompuri]

Many would go with Finlandia - as it is Vodka-brand, not a country.

Mark V

And a good one too

I prefer Smirnoff.

I Absolut prefer 100% barley based...Finlandia. I don´t wanna drink potatoes.

Regards, Juha

[Ike_FI]

NATO countries did also their best in trying to recruit former Finnish patrolmens into new reconnaissance patrols deep into Soviet territory - most refused, though few continued their wartime job in the payroll of NATO.

Hmm, I've met couple of times an ex-LRRP-man who has lived in Norway IIRC since the 40's (he's a relative of a friend of mine), never thought his immigration might have been caused by something like that, but who knows? Unfortunately I only heard about his wartime duties (including a recon trip around lake Ladoga) long after meeting him - hope I still have a chance to meet him again some day and hear those unique first-hand accounts...

- indigenously developed double barreled 20mm AA-gun, 20 ItK/40 VKT "Vekotin" (Gadget), which had much better firepower than German guns of same calibre was valuable addition to the anti-aircraft firepower of our troops in later years of Continuation War

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