Most important ally of Germany on the Eastern Front?

[Juha Tompuri]

Juha Tompuri said :

Ever...

At the begining of Winter War USSR had (about) 23622 tanks at service.
They entered the war against Finland with 2514 tanks
Finnish troops eliminated 2268 (of which 288 captured) tanks (in 105 days)
Out of action due mechanical problems 1275 tanks
At the end of the war 2998 tanks at service at Finnish front

TOTAL: 6541 tanks against Finland.

Hi you there! I see that our discussion remains very interesting! I remained neutral from the beginning but now I want to intervene a little bit.

I have no doubt that Finland destroyed 2268 and captured 288 Soviet tanks during the Winter War. But I want to remind you that these tanks couldn't be compared with what was threatening both Romania and Finland in 1944. T-34/85 and IS's cannot be compared with T-26s, T-28s or T-35s. Even when facing huge KVs, you could destroy them with the help of aviation. In addition to all this, you have the winter and a bad terrain for mass attacks with tanks. All this combined produced a Soviet graveyard.
This is my opinion.
Best regards,
M-06

Hi Maresal,

I too tried to stay neutral...
Some notes:
the 288 captured are included to the destroyed 2268
the Winter War era tanks can well be compared to the -44 tanks, as the ratio between AT-weapons/tanks at Winter War was catastrofical to us. We had 98 37mm Bofors AT-guns (familiar to Romania too) when the war broke out.
The our AF versus USSR AF was even more difficult. We had no ground attack planes to deal with the enemy KV-1`s and KV-2`s. 37mm Bofors´s, Molotov cocktails, satchel charges and small AT mines were the only thing we had against the monsters.
The weather was with us and against us. We were more used to the low temperatures, but it also made the lakes, swamps and even the sea at bay of Viipuri/Viborg hard enough to allow tanks to cross them.


Best Regards, Juha

[trower]

The Finlanders fought much better, they had hardened experience fighting russians and were used to extreme weather conditions. On the other had the Romanians proved to be great cannon fodder for the Germans at Stalingrad.

[Victor]

On the other had the Romanians proved to be great cannon fodder for the Germans at Stalingrad.

There is much more than Stalingrad for the Romanian army in WWII. Unfortunately people do not know to much about it.

[Mimo]

Any profesional assessment give Romania as main ally. As I see, the main argument of Romania litigators is the profesionalism of the romanian army. This is only one of the criterias of the support. In fact, speaking about the armies contributions, german army provided 80% of army capabilities. But the army profesionalism of an army is a little hard thing to assess. Romanian army suffered many defeats, but also gained many small victories, more than other armies gained. Even they did not shook your ears. Romanian army has a significant contribution to the initial victories of the germans in USSR, even the germans don't recognized. Anyhow, I don't want to offend anybody, but if we suppose one of the Germany ally troops in USSR had had to confront the romanian troops, it would had no chance to stand out.

[Serbian boy]

I vote for loyal Hungary. Both Finland and Romania signed armistice with the USSR.

[Mimo]

Mabe you don't know, but Hungary tried to quit axis before Romania. They don't succeded! Romania did!

[Serbian boy]

Mabe you don't know, but Hungary tried to quit axis before Romania. They don't succeded! Romania did!

This is not true. Hungary firstly tried to contact the allies and later the soviets. Horty proclaimed the armistice on 15th october 1944, but the germans and hungarian national-socialists succesfully changed the situation.

[Mimo]

anyhow, the romanian switch was an act of justice. I don't like that Romania had to join USSR(I prefere they would join anglo-saxons), but I total agree with the insurgency.

[Andreas]

Mabe you don't know, but Hungary tried to quit axis before Romania. They don't succeded! Romania did!

This is not true. Hungary firstly tried to contact the allies and later the soviets. Horty proclaimed the armistice on 15th october 1944, but the germans and hungarian national-socialists succesfully changed the situation.

The Hungarian government had made attempts to get out prior to this, and as a consequence had the country occupied by the Germans in March 1944.

All the best

Andreas

[Qvist]

The Romanians seem the logical choice to me - their contribution, numerically, was of an extent that only the Finns really rival, and as the Finnish front were for the most part detached and passive, it is questionable how big of a contribution it really constituted. This, of course, being no reflection on the demonstrably very high capabilities of the Finnish forces.

cheers

[llwyd]

The Romanians seem the logical choice to me - their contribution, numerically, was of an extent that only the Finns really rival, and as the Finnish front were for the most part detached and passive, it is questionable how big of a contribution it really constituted. This, of course, being no reflection on the demonstrably very high capabilities of the Finnish forces.

What you say about Finnish passivity is absolutely true - no active participation in the siege of Leningrad, no serious effort to cut the Murmansk railway etc. Mannerheim was only responsible to the Finnish government, and was, like Ryti, actually an anglophile. I would say that as a really small nation in a war that saw small and mid-sized nations collapse like houses of cards Finland overperformed madly. We hold on to our democracy even after the war, were never occupied - Mannerheim was elected president and got a stateman's funeral in Helsinki in 1951, the major road to the centre of Helsinki was named after him in the 60's at the same time as a magnificent equestrian statue was erected in his honour. All this tells me that Finland was quite in a category of her own as an "axis" nation...

[Mark V]

equestrian statue was erected in his honour.

Hi.

Interesting point.

I wondered could there be another country that fought in axis side during WW2, one which wartime leader TODAY has an statue in public place...

(OK- Mannerheims statue is in the focal point of our capital - but lets assume anywhere in public place is good enough here....)

Who else ? I can't imagine anyone else than Hirohito - is there statue of him in Japan ? .. i doubt that if there was - it would not had survived Dugout Dougs democration process of Japan...

Franco is propably the closest, but no cigar - not quite axis, and not quite WW2 - but he DOES have 1 statue left - in N-African Spanish enclave of Melilla - but that statue has countdown for removal propably ongoing...

...on the other hand Mannerheims statue is not going anywhere, nor the Czar Alexander II statue and both are at pride spots in middle of Helsinki... wartime commander of chief and President, and one Russian Czar - that may sound strange - but reasons could be found in our history...

Mannerheim (behind is the House of Parliament) http://daviding.com/blog/wp-content/upl ... statue.jpg
Alexander II (behind is Helsinki Cathedral) http://nk.oulu.fi/enorssi/gallery/album ... 0020_G.jpg

PS. Also other wartime Presidents, Kallio and Ryti have their own statues.


Regards

[Mika68*]

Finland tied a lot of Soviet troops to its front. Finland gave vital minerals to German weapon industry. 80 % of nickel of German weapon industry came from Finland.
Which were Romanian achievements? Heavy losses with Germans in Eastern Front ,and miserably defeat in Stalingrad.. Only oil, which was vital to Germany.

Ok, Finland made some manouvres which made more difficult to Germany to win the war. Mannerheim denied to invade Murmansk railroad which was vital route of US military aid to USSR. Mannerheim denied to invade Leningrad. Finland cheated Germany after defence victory on Karelian Isthmus and made armistice with USSR 3rd September 1944.

Romania was more important, but maybe Finland had been more important if it had not done some manouvres mentioned above.

[udar]

Finland tied a lot of Soviet troops to its front. Finland gave vital minerals to German weapon industry. 80 % of nickel of German weapon industry came from Finland.
Which were Romanian achievements? Heavy losses with Germans in Eastern Front ,and miserably defeat in Stalingrad.. Only oil, which was vital to Germany.

Ok, Finland made some manouvres which made more difficult to Germany to win the war. Mannerheim denied to invade Murmansk railroad which was vital route of US military aid to USSR. Mannerheim denied to invade Leningrad. Finland cheated Germany after defence victory on Karelian Isthmus and made armistice with USSR 3rd September 1944.

Romania was more important, but maybe Finland had been more important if it had not done some manouvres mentioned above.

Hmm, that was much more from Romania that Stalingrad. First it was Odessa, that was taken pretty much alone by Romanian Army. Then Romanian Army played an important role in Crimeea, under von Manstein command. Not to mention that Romanin Mountain Hunters divisions played the role of spearhead in Caucasus and afaik it was such a Romanian division that reached the farthest point reached by an Axis unit in east, and conquered the town of Nalcik (somewhere in Cechnia).

Then Romanian Navy played the main role in evacuation of Crimeea, despite the fact that Soviet Navy had a large superiority in numbers.
And then, despite some attempts of some Germans after WW 2 to avoid the mention or deny it, Romanian units fought alongisde German ones in defeating the Red Army first offensive toward south-eastern Europe, see the first Iasi-Chisinau offensive, battles of Targu-Frumos and so on. I understand that after the war lots of German militaries tried to explain their failures by blaming everyone around except them, many times without a suport in reality.

Lets not forget about Ploiesti oilfields, where despite ones of the heaviest bombing campaigns of WW 2, the Romanian and German air defense managed to hold it and the refineries and oil fields was never taken out, just partialy in some periods. Also, Ploiesti area was nicknamed "the bombers graveyard". One of the most famous bombing raids of WW 2, "Tidal Wave" ended with more people killed in the air then on the gorund, and without USAF managing to take out a significant oil processing capacities.

So yes, Romania was the most important ally, despite it didnt wanted and was forced in such position by USSR agression (combined with the pressure in the same time from Germany and its small allies around) and Romanian allies (France and UK) incapacity to fulfill the alliance treaties in 1940

Sure, Finland did a great job in 1939 against USSR, but in WW 2 proper was a little player. I read somewhere that Finland Army tried an advance toward Murmansk, but was blocked and never tried again (not sure if is correct?), and then didnt participated either to the siege of Leningrad.
In fact, it is enough to look at the list of foreign Knights of Iron Cross militaries to see who was more decorated by Germans

And thats OK, everyone tried to do the best for them,and to do as much as they thought is possible or they can. I doubt that any other Army would be capable to hold better then Romanian Army at Stalingrad, given the same conditions, little to no AT wepons, huge area (and just fields, no natural defences) to hold with little troops and overhelming numerical superiority of Soviet troops in soldiers and heavy weapons and tanks.
Romanian Army was involved actualy even in proper fights in Stalingrad, the units under comand of General Lascar i think.

[DenesBernad]

So yes, Romania was the most important ally, despite it didnt wanted and was forced in such position by USSR agression (combined with the pressure in the same time from Germany and its small allies around) and Romanian allies (France and UK) incapacity to fulfill the alliance treaties in 1940...

Udar, let's not play, again, the role of a victim in regards of Rumania.
Rumania was not 'forced', she willfully joined the anti-Soviet war and - alongside Finland - was the only nation Hitler actually counted on when penning the plan of 'Operation Barbarossa'.

Dénes