Propane/Blank Firing Guns
Jeff - what a lot of MIS-Information! Propane Firing guns - are not Guns and the ATF , has nothing to do with them . On blank firing guns - is only to see how easy to covert to live firing. Look up or call an Attorney or Police and they will tell you under the defition of a GUN - if it can not fire a projectile - it is not a gun - OK - here is the real point - Liability, if this is made wrong and blows up ! resulting in personal Injury!. This information is only for here in the USA . Be Safe .
Conley (corrected)
If you are using a destroyed receiver or a demilled weapon as the basis for your gas gun, the information is correct. Please point out what information is MIS-information please. If you build a gas weapon from scratch, then you are correct (I didn't address that situation, but note comment at end).
Note that Taltos was told to contact the ATF, exactly what I said should happen.
Here is the definition of a machinegun under U.S. law (NFA U.S.C. 26 Chap. 53, Section 5845).
Here is the ruling on unserviceable firearms (my use of demilled followed Taltos question, unserviceable is the correct term). This is from the question answer section of the ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (Revised - 9/05) page 186-187.
The only way a machinegun is no longer under the NFA is if the receiver has been destroyed per BATF procedures. As I pointed out, if the assembly of the destroyed receiver is done in a manner that the BATF feels can be use again as a machinegun, than the weapon/item comes back under the regulations of the BATF.
You are welcome to take my posts to a lawyer and have him review my statements. I would certainly be interested in any case law that disproves my comments.
Jeff
If you are using a destroyed receiver or a demilled weapon as the basis for your gas gun, the information is correct. Please point out what information is MIS-information please. If you build a gas weapon from scratch, then you are correct (I didn't address that situation, but note comment at end).
Note that Taltos was told to contact the ATF, exactly what I said should happen.
Here is the definition of a machinegun under U.S. law (NFA U.S.C. 26 Chap. 53, Section 5845).
Pretty broad and includes a collection of parts. Under the law (and the courts have upheld it), just having the parts is illegal if you have enough to build a machinegun.b) Machinegun. The term 'machinegun' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Here is the ruling on unserviceable firearms (my use of demilled followed Taltos question, unserviceable is the correct term). This is from the question answer section of the ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (Revised - 9/05) page 186-187.
A unserviceable machinegun is one that hasn’t been destroyed. Blocking the barrel and welding it to the receiver is still a machinegun and comes under the NFA and is regulated by the BATF. Missing parts don't count if they can be readily installed.M5) What is an unserviceable firearm? An unserviceable firearm is defined as one which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and which is incapable of being readily re-stored to a firing condition.
An acceptable method of rendering most firearms unserviceable is to fusion weld the chamber closed and fusion weld the barrel solidly to the frame. Certain unusual firearms require other methods to render the firearms unserviceable.
An unserviceable NFA firearm is still subject to the controls of the NFA, but may be transferred tax free as a curio or ornament.
[26 U.S.C. 5845(h) and 5852, 27 CFR 479.11and 479.91]
The only way a machinegun is no longer under the NFA is if the receiver has been destroyed per BATF procedures. As I pointed out, if the assembly of the destroyed receiver is done in a manner that the BATF feels can be use again as a machinegun, than the weapon/item comes back under the regulations of the BATF.
As long as the gas weapon is built in such a way that it can't be used to restore a demilled/destroyer machinegun back to firing condition, you are correct. But the fact the machinegun parts are being used to build a gas weapon allows the BATF to rule on the matter. When dealing with machineguns, the case law clearly supports that the BATF has the right regulate until proven otherwise. If they suspect the weapon is a machinegun, or can be readily converted in to a machinegun, they can confiscate on the spot, no questions asked. You might win in the end, but you will need to fight the battle in court.Look up or call an Attorney or Police and they will tell you under the defition of a GUN - if it can not fire a projectile - it is not a gun
You are welcome to take my posts to a lawyer and have him review my statements. I would certainly be interested in any case law that disproves my comments.
Jeff
Last edited by jwsleser on 16 Sep 2007, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
pzrwest
Correct. Note the definitions all include the phrase 'readily restored to firing condition (or to shoot)'. This is why any assembly of a destroyed receiver must be done is such a way to prove it can't be readily restored to firing condition. What constitutes readily restored is undefined (decided at your trial), This is why it is better to destroy critical things on the receiver that are not needed for gas but needed for firing (like the internal guides, rails, etc. if they are difficult to restore).
Jeff
Correct. Note the definitions all include the phrase 'readily restored to firing condition (or to shoot)'. This is why any assembly of a destroyed receiver must be done is such a way to prove it can't be readily restored to firing condition. What constitutes readily restored is undefined (decided at your trial), This is why it is better to destroy critical things on the receiver that are not needed for gas but needed for firing (like the internal guides, rails, etc. if they are difficult to restore).
Jeff
YES - Jeff you are Wrong ! you are reading the Stuff ! Gas Gun - aka TOY ! people build them all the time - Point - NO moving Parts - still just a hunk of Metal - and yes -- any LEO Judge, etc., if a gun can not shoot a pojetial - it is not a gun - lots of cases - case in point - if you rob a person at gun point - but the gun was toy ? Look it up - NO- Miss information -
/ Here is the point = if you drill a hole in the receiver or barrel - you have just made it more demil - Check with the ATF - You do not have to send them a gun ! why are you telling people to spend extra money when thay do not have to ? / Any way - there are a lot of gas guns out there - - this is only for the USA - Yes Jeff - I will tell you - you are wrong ! name is Conley - Ok -I see this trend is getting out of line - so will not replay as Right is Right - Wrong is Wrong -
/ Here is the point = if you drill a hole in the receiver or barrel - you have just made it more demil - Check with the ATF - You do not have to send them a gun ! why are you telling people to spend extra money when thay do not have to ? / Any way - there are a lot of gas guns out there - - this is only for the USA - Yes Jeff - I will tell you - you are wrong ! name is Conley - Ok -I see this trend is getting out of line - so will not replay as Right is Right - Wrong is Wrong -
Conley
My apologies. I was focused more on discussion. I should have checked my spelling of your name.
Ahhhh I see you focused on the inspection by BATF. From my post.
First
Note in my first post that I said gas is different. Yes people build them all the time. Yes a correctly-built gas gun will survive a court challenge. That doesn't mean that it can't be challenged at great cost to you. That is why I recommend that you use a destroyed receiver and INSURE it can never be used as a machinegun again. Taltos can use his Madsen kit as long as he is careful to destroy critical features of the receiver before he assembles the receiver. Is he prefectly legal? Yes. Is his gas conversion open to challenge by the BATF? Yes.
Much depends on the law officer making the decision on the spot. My Breda still looks like a servicable machinegun. After all, it is a display weapon. When an officer asks me about it, I carefully show him/her all the modifications to demonstrate the weapon is not a machinegun. I have a copy of a letter written by me explaining all the steps with my contact information to give to him/her. I don't expect to have any problems, but the law, when it comes to machineguns, is not on my side.
Taltos.
It is perfectly legal to make a gas gun from a destroyed receiver. It is also perfectly legal to make a gas gun from an unservicable machinegun. Note the law still views the latter as a machinegun. As long as your state laws allow it and you follow the requirements of the NFA, you can own a gas gun made from an unserviceable machinegun.
My point in all this is to be careful. It is too easy to assemble the destroyed receiver in such a manner that, with a little more work, it can be used to fire again. As I have pointed out in the law above, it is illegal to own a receiver that can be readily restored to firing condition. Your job in building the gas gun is to insure you can prove it can't be rendered operational again.
Jeff
My apologies. I was focused more on discussion. I should have checked my spelling of your name.
Ahhhh I see you focused on the inspection by BATF. From my post.
First
And thenNote that the ATF has not made anything involving machineguns simple; the only way to be 100% certain is to get a letter for the BAFT approving your design. This will usually involve sending the weapon (once they have approved the design) to the BATF for inspection/testing. If you are making a firing version (semi-auto) you must do this. Gas (from my research) is different.
If you are using a unservicable or destroyed receiver and you are changing/ modifying that receiver, the only way to be 100% safe is to submit the weapon to the BATF for inspection. I have not submitted my display Breda to the BATF for inspection. If a law enforcement officer at an event inspects my display Breda and decides that it can be 'readily restored to firing condition' it is gone until I prove it is safe. The only thing that prevents confiscation 100% of the time is a letter from BATF. If it looks and feels like a machinegun, the law is not on your side.As I mentioned above, a semi-auto version will require BATF approval of the design BEFORE you start, then BATF inspection/testing after it is assembled. If you successfully accomplish this, you will be issued a letter by the BATF. If you are following an already approved design for a semi-auto, you need to get a copy of the letter. Note that a blank-firing only version (auto or semi-auto) has the same requirements for approval as a semi-auto version.
Note in my first post that I said gas is different. Yes people build them all the time. Yes a correctly-built gas gun will survive a court challenge. That doesn't mean that it can't be challenged at great cost to you. That is why I recommend that you use a destroyed receiver and INSURE it can never be used as a machinegun again. Taltos can use his Madsen kit as long as he is careful to destroy critical features of the receiver before he assembles the receiver. Is he prefectly legal? Yes. Is his gas conversion open to challenge by the BATF? Yes.
Much depends on the law officer making the decision on the spot. My Breda still looks like a servicable machinegun. After all, it is a display weapon. When an officer asks me about it, I carefully show him/her all the modifications to demonstrate the weapon is not a machinegun. I have a copy of a letter written by me explaining all the steps with my contact information to give to him/her. I don't expect to have any problems, but the law, when it comes to machineguns, is not on my side.
Machineguns normally have quick-change barrels. A hole is a barrel means you just install a different barrel. Under the BATF rulings, this only renders the weapon unservicable if it is welded to the receiver. It is still legally a machinegun. Same with a hole in the receiver. The main function of the receiver is to guide the parts during cycling and absorb the recoil. A hole in most places of a receiver will not render it inop. .Here is the point = if you drill a hole in the receiver or barrel - you have just made it more demil - Check with the ATF
Taltos.
It is perfectly legal to make a gas gun from a destroyed receiver. It is also perfectly legal to make a gas gun from an unservicable machinegun. Note the law still views the latter as a machinegun. As long as your state laws allow it and you follow the requirements of the NFA, you can own a gas gun made from an unserviceable machinegun.
My point in all this is to be careful. It is too easy to assemble the destroyed receiver in such a manner that, with a little more work, it can be used to fire again. As I have pointed out in the law above, it is illegal to own a receiver that can be readily restored to firing condition. Your job in building the gas gun is to insure you can prove it can't be rendered operational again.
Jeff
Thank you all for your information. I've been put into contact with a man who has made, or is in the process of making legal automatic blank firing versions of both the guns I listed. I will be calling him Monday. I'll post on here what his information is.
Best regards and deepest thanks to you all,
John
Best regards and deepest thanks to you all,
John
John
I will be interested in hearing what the builder tells you. I assume it will be semi-auto system. I would love to have a blank firing Breda 30, but I can't design a system that would likely pass ATF muster. The design of the trigger housing and the recoil spring set-up prevent an easy installation of a semi-auto system that would preclude conversion to auto firing.
Jeff
I will be interested in hearing what the builder tells you. I assume it will be semi-auto system. I would love to have a blank firing Breda 30, but I can't design a system that would likely pass ATF muster. The design of the trigger housing and the recoil spring set-up prevent an easy installation of a semi-auto system that would preclude conversion to auto firing.
Jeff
John
I am assuming here, but I wondering if he puts the complete M1 receiver inside. Both the Schwarzlose and Madsen receivers are large enough. This also makes it impossible to convert back to full auto. The Madsen pistol grip is about in the right place to work the hammer. The Schwarzlose would need a bit of work to build a linkage to the hammer assembly. I wonder what he does about the feed? If he places the M1 receiver up-sidedown, he might be able to get the Madsen magazine to work (problem with the trigger). The Schwarzlose is a different problem (belt feed). Its possible he just leave the M1 feed system in place. Interesting.
Jeff
I am assuming here, but I wondering if he puts the complete M1 receiver inside. Both the Schwarzlose and Madsen receivers are large enough. This also makes it impossible to convert back to full auto. The Madsen pistol grip is about in the right place to work the hammer. The Schwarzlose would need a bit of work to build a linkage to the hammer assembly. I wonder what he does about the feed? If he places the M1 receiver up-sidedown, he might be able to get the Madsen magazine to work (problem with the trigger). The Schwarzlose is a different problem (belt feed). Its possible he just leave the M1 feed system in place. Interesting.
Jeff
Re: Propane/Blank Firing Guns
[quote="taltos"]Hi All,
Does anyone have any information on how to turn a demiled gun into a propane or blank firing one, or knows anyone who does it? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
John[/quote]
John,
Keeping it legal is really a simple process as regards propane guns. All the info and warnings you have received are quite important and should be observed if you intend to build your propane gun using a re-assembled original receiver.
The smart -- and legal -- thing to do in a propane gun build, however, is to NOT use an original receiver. Instead, build your own "receiver" (use a thin, 16 guage sheet metal) that reproduces the appearance of the original, but is incapable of accepting any of the real gun's internal components.
This is what I am doing in building several MG42 propane guns. From the outside, the guns are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing, but the thin sheet metal receiver simply WILL NOT accomodate any of the original internals. In addition, the dummy receiver is cavernous inside compared with the original, making it quite simple to install and service the necessary propane components.
Anybody with basic shop and/or metalworking skills and access to proper metalworking equipment can build an acceptable dummy receiver. Those without the skills and/or equipment should be able to have a receiver built by a competent metal worker or home hobbiest.
A few specialized components are required for the propane gun build, specifically the circuit board which controls the rate of fire thru gas solenoid and spark activation. These components, along with a detailed parts list and build instructions are available from:
Steve L. Smith
P.O. Box 158
Barnhart, Mo. 63012-0158
So, there you go. BATFE concerns addressed, and sources for the hard-to-find parts provided. Does that adequately answer your initial question?
Of course, for those who simply don't want to build their own propane gun, there are several turn-key builders who will simply take your money and send you a gun ready to shoot.
GeeDeeEmm
Does anyone have any information on how to turn a demiled gun into a propane or blank firing one, or knows anyone who does it? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
John[/quote]
John,
Keeping it legal is really a simple process as regards propane guns. All the info and warnings you have received are quite important and should be observed if you intend to build your propane gun using a re-assembled original receiver.
The smart -- and legal -- thing to do in a propane gun build, however, is to NOT use an original receiver. Instead, build your own "receiver" (use a thin, 16 guage sheet metal) that reproduces the appearance of the original, but is incapable of accepting any of the real gun's internal components.
This is what I am doing in building several MG42 propane guns. From the outside, the guns are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing, but the thin sheet metal receiver simply WILL NOT accomodate any of the original internals. In addition, the dummy receiver is cavernous inside compared with the original, making it quite simple to install and service the necessary propane components.
Anybody with basic shop and/or metalworking skills and access to proper metalworking equipment can build an acceptable dummy receiver. Those without the skills and/or equipment should be able to have a receiver built by a competent metal worker or home hobbiest.
A few specialized components are required for the propane gun build, specifically the circuit board which controls the rate of fire thru gas solenoid and spark activation. These components, along with a detailed parts list and build instructions are available from:
Steve L. Smith
P.O. Box 158
Barnhart, Mo. 63012-0158
So, there you go. BATFE concerns addressed, and sources for the hard-to-find parts provided. Does that adequately answer your initial question?
Of course, for those who simply don't want to build their own propane gun, there are several turn-key builders who will simply take your money and send you a gun ready to shoot.
GeeDeeEmm
I found this link to an excellent discussion of the NFA laws on another forum. Anyone thinking of using a MG parts kit should read through this. While it doesn't address gas guns specifically, it does address the legality of MG parts. The bit about DEWATS is illuminating.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/us ... fa_faq.txt
Not trying to reopen the discussion, just offering some more info.
Jeff
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/us ... fa_faq.txt
Not trying to reopen the discussion, just offering some more info.
Jeff
Re:
Hi, I am a armourer who is doing some mods for LPG and would like a copy of your PDF if you would be so kind to send me a copy?Conley wrote:John - I have a file - PDF -on how to make a gas gun - it is for a Vickers - let me know if you can use it.
Dan