Medical Units
- Matt Gibbs
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Medical Units
Hi folks;
Are there any books - not too involved I guess, but an overview - of the german medical units in the desert war? I'm in a british group concentrating on non-combatant stuff and would like to learn a bit about my opposite number, the medical officer and his place near the front, in the chain of evacuation.
Regards
Matt
Are there any books - not too involved I guess, but an overview - of the german medical units in the desert war? I'm in a british group concentrating on non-combatant stuff and would like to learn a bit about my opposite number, the medical officer and his place near the front, in the chain of evacuation.
Regards
Matt
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Re: Medical Units
Yes,i cann say,that in german language is WWII now graet and very concetrated 2 books for doctors in front abuot all and very good about morbus traumaticus cerebri -operationg methodik-super news in this and to day so...I think yuo cann in medicals library 1940 ,,Medicals german books,,...very,very super boocks.dr.med.Internal medicine /kapitan of SSSR army reserwe/Juozas Prasauskas.Lithuania.
- Matt Gibbs
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Re: Medical Units
Thanks for that advice. I shall have to decide whether I want to journey down the road of getting a technical german book because my language skill will probably mean I miss a lot of good detail. I have been told there may be a british summary book from post war that is some kind of assessment of german medical capabilities. Something else to look for.
regards
Matt
regards
Matt
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Medical Units
Hello Matt
Unfortunately my site about the german medical service is not online yet. Maybe you can formulate some questions what with you rmain interest so that I can answer them.
regards,
Christoph
Unfortunately my site about the german medical service is not online yet. Maybe you can formulate some questions what with you rmain interest so that I can answer them.
regards,
Christoph
- Matt Gibbs
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Re: Medical Units
Thanks Christoph, thats very kind, I will think about it in the next few days and get back to you. Mainly it is in the chain of evacuation they used, if they had forward surgical teams or sent wounded back and the treatment of POWs. The british had one medical officer and stretcher bearers in each Regiment did the germans have the same?
Regards
Matt
Regards
Matt
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Medical Units
Hello Matt,
The way of evacuation and treatment depended on the battle situation - meaning advance or static combat situation.
Basically each battalion had a medical officer the so called Truppenarzt. He provided at battalion- respectively Abteilungs-level the first surgical treatment of wounded. With his medical NCO´s he set up the so called Truppenverbandplatz which was the first care point. Before the wounded soldier was recovered by so called Krankenträger (stretcher bearers) and Hilfskrankenträger which were appointed as needed (usually 8 per infantry company) from the field. In the so called Verwundetennest he received advanced first aid treatment by the Krankenträger. If not able to walk he was brought either to a wounded collecting point or directly to the Truppenverbandplatz with any kind of evacuation (ambulance, stretcher etc..).
There the live saving medical treatment was done. As soon as possible he was brought back to the Hauptverbandplatz which was operating at regimental level set up by the divisional medical units. There it was possible to do most live saving operations and treatments. In static positions it was also possible to keep some patients stationary.
As soon as transport ready the patients were then brought either to the divisonal hospital (Feldlazarett) or an Korps installation. From 1942 on most divisions did not have an organic Feldlazarett.
This looked a little bit different in mobile situations. The TVPl. and HVPL. had to be moved frequently and were set up near at the advance if casualties needed it. "Flying surgeon" groups took care of wounded at the spot and made them transport ready.
hope this helps,
Christoph
The way of evacuation and treatment depended on the battle situation - meaning advance or static combat situation.
Basically each battalion had a medical officer the so called Truppenarzt. He provided at battalion- respectively Abteilungs-level the first surgical treatment of wounded. With his medical NCO´s he set up the so called Truppenverbandplatz which was the first care point. Before the wounded soldier was recovered by so called Krankenträger (stretcher bearers) and Hilfskrankenträger which were appointed as needed (usually 8 per infantry company) from the field. In the so called Verwundetennest he received advanced first aid treatment by the Krankenträger. If not able to walk he was brought either to a wounded collecting point or directly to the Truppenverbandplatz with any kind of evacuation (ambulance, stretcher etc..).
There the live saving medical treatment was done. As soon as possible he was brought back to the Hauptverbandplatz which was operating at regimental level set up by the divisional medical units. There it was possible to do most live saving operations and treatments. In static positions it was also possible to keep some patients stationary.
As soon as transport ready the patients were then brought either to the divisonal hospital (Feldlazarett) or an Korps installation. From 1942 on most divisions did not have an organic Feldlazarett.
This looked a little bit different in mobile situations. The TVPl. and HVPL. had to be moved frequently and were set up near at the advance if casualties needed it. "Flying surgeon" groups took care of wounded at the spot and made them transport ready.
hope this helps,
Christoph
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Re: Medical Units
I have a question that has bugged me for awhile now. Did the Germans stockpile adequate amounts of morphine or other natural opiate derivatives such as heroin codiene to last them the war? Or where they forced to use other anesthetics on the battlefield. The reason I asked is that I know pre war the germans where experimenting with synthetic opiate derivatives such as methadone in case they where unable to access Opium for long periods of time. Also where these medications available at the squad level as in the american army where normal medics could give morphine as seen in "Saving Private Ryan" and other movies.
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Medical Units
Hello
One problem with this topic is that most people writing about it have just a basic or no knowledge about pharmacology etc.. There are many myths and specualtions around which are totally nonsense e.g. the myth of the so called "Adolphine" etc... Many people mix up medicaments which have a similar effect like "morphium" or are belonging to a form of it.
I don´t know how much you know about pharmacology and medicaments so I try to keep the info as basic and straight as possible.
Germany had a long history of researching anaestetics, variants and possibilities. Medicaments (pills, tablets, ampules) were directly produced in the so called Sanitätspark units at Armee and Korps level. These were dependent on which raw materials were available at the time and the location they were in action.
Also the Wehrmacht had ampules and tablets with "Morphinum hydrochlorium 0,01g and 0,02g. These show up in medicament lists of medical units throughout the war. So it was definately used throughout the war. Of course with ups and downs depending on the local supply situation. Other standard medicaments used in this category were Pantopon, Scopolamin- Eukodal- Ephetonin. In the late 30ies it was possible to produce a fully syntetic Opioid (Pethidin (Dolantin)) which was also used with different names within the Wehrmacht medical installations.
Regarding your second question. These medicaments (morphine) etc.. were not issued by normal medical personnel. The (Truppenarzt) at battalion level had the first possibility to give such medicaments usually at the Truppenverbandplatz. For further transport stabilisation a mixture of morphine and Pervitin proofed to be successfull to keep the patients in a good conditions under these circumstances.
hope this helps,
Christoph
One problem with this topic is that most people writing about it have just a basic or no knowledge about pharmacology etc.. There are many myths and specualtions around which are totally nonsense e.g. the myth of the so called "Adolphine" etc... Many people mix up medicaments which have a similar effect like "morphium" or are belonging to a form of it.
I don´t know how much you know about pharmacology and medicaments so I try to keep the info as basic and straight as possible.
Germany had a long history of researching anaestetics, variants and possibilities. Medicaments (pills, tablets, ampules) were directly produced in the so called Sanitätspark units at Armee and Korps level. These were dependent on which raw materials were available at the time and the location they were in action.
Also the Wehrmacht had ampules and tablets with "Morphinum hydrochlorium 0,01g and 0,02g. These show up in medicament lists of medical units throughout the war. So it was definately used throughout the war. Of course with ups and downs depending on the local supply situation. Other standard medicaments used in this category were Pantopon, Scopolamin- Eukodal- Ephetonin. In the late 30ies it was possible to produce a fully syntetic Opioid (Pethidin (Dolantin)) which was also used with different names within the Wehrmacht medical installations.
Regarding your second question. These medicaments (morphine) etc.. were not issued by normal medical personnel. The (Truppenarzt) at battalion level had the first possibility to give such medicaments usually at the Truppenverbandplatz. For further transport stabilisation a mixture of morphine and Pervitin proofed to be successfull to keep the patients in a good conditions under these circumstances.
hope this helps,
Christoph
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Re: Medical Units
Yes the methadone myths are very widepsread especially here in the United States. I have a good understanding of pharmacology as far as the drugs and terminology used in the United States. In your opinion why did field medics not have acess to the these drugs when there allied counterparts did? It seems to me it would help the moral of the troops to know that if you are terribly wounded you would not die agony. Anyway thanks for your answers I think this a facinating topic that is not covered from the German perspective at least not in English sources anyway.
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Medical Units
Hello
Well, I can just offer my oppinion about it. I think it is a matter of medical tradition that just doctors can use and handle medicaments. We still have the same situation in modern emergency medicine. While the paramedics in the USA mostly work on their own we are here the right hand of a doctor although we have nearly the same training and education.
Morphium was and is still a medicament to save the life of the patient and not to make dying easier. It is a highly potential drug and is not as easy to use as it is depicted in some movies. Taking pain from a patient is a important part of saving his life because pain means stress for the body and stress is negatively influencing oxygen demand, circulation etc... So JUST administering morphium is usually not enough and also contraindicated with some special wounds like jaw and throat shots (see report of the consultant surgeons). Not to talk about the difficulties of an overdose.
So I think that they considered the administration of morphium by medics as too complex for them and wanted it to keep it in "studied" hands.
I am personally also this oppinion that it needs a good knowledge of medicine to use morphium in a good way. Of course it will work well in 90% of the cases if given by medics... but if problems or special cases occur they cannot react properly without a doctor.
As said above... just my oppinion as paramedic.
/Christoph
Well, I can just offer my oppinion about it. I think it is a matter of medical tradition that just doctors can use and handle medicaments. We still have the same situation in modern emergency medicine. While the paramedics in the USA mostly work on their own we are here the right hand of a doctor although we have nearly the same training and education.
Morphium was and is still a medicament to save the life of the patient and not to make dying easier. It is a highly potential drug and is not as easy to use as it is depicted in some movies. Taking pain from a patient is a important part of saving his life because pain means stress for the body and stress is negatively influencing oxygen demand, circulation etc... So JUST administering morphium is usually not enough and also contraindicated with some special wounds like jaw and throat shots (see report of the consultant surgeons). Not to talk about the difficulties of an overdose.
So I think that they considered the administration of morphium by medics as too complex for them and wanted it to keep it in "studied" hands.
I am personally also this oppinion that it needs a good knowledge of medicine to use morphium in a good way. Of course it will work well in 90% of the cases if given by medics... but if problems or special cases occur they cannot react properly without a doctor.
As said above... just my oppinion as paramedic.
/Christoph
- Dieter Zinke
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Re: Medical Units
Well done, Christoph,
I couldn't've said it better myself !
DIeter Z.
I couldn't've said it better myself !
DIeter Z.
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- Christoph Awender
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Re: Medical Units
Thank you Dieter!Dieter Zinke wrote:Well done, Christoph,
I couldn't've said it better myself !
DIeter Z.
- Matt Gibbs
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Re: Medical Units
Hello Christoph;
Many thanks for that very helpful outline. It actually parallels quite similarly the British chain of evacuation. I suppose there is only a certain efficient way of doing something. You mention that they had mobile surgical teams to get closer to the front, and this is how the British developed their thinking as well, due to the long chains of evacuation in the desert war.
The british Regimental Doctor was a qualified doctor [MO], I suspect the set up being basically the same as the Truppenarzt. He was the first line of treatment and had access to various medications. The only treatment by medication that was additional was that training was given to the stretcher bearer NCOs in the use of the morphine syrettes which became available during the war. These were of course very simple one shot use for a quarter grain dose which had to be marked on the patients forehead. They were not "Medics", indeed the British ORBAT has no equivalent to the US Army "Medic". All other medications held at Regimental level were kept padlocked in the Regimental Pannier.
This is a very interesting comparison subject to me - I hope those looking solely for German information will forgive the comparative info on British units I have mentioned Within my part in a re-enactment group I am trying to find out more about the "opposing sides" medical arrangement becuase it is amazing what questions the public will ask!
Regards
Matt
Many thanks for that very helpful outline. It actually parallels quite similarly the British chain of evacuation. I suppose there is only a certain efficient way of doing something. You mention that they had mobile surgical teams to get closer to the front, and this is how the British developed their thinking as well, due to the long chains of evacuation in the desert war.
The british Regimental Doctor was a qualified doctor [MO], I suspect the set up being basically the same as the Truppenarzt. He was the first line of treatment and had access to various medications. The only treatment by medication that was additional was that training was given to the stretcher bearer NCOs in the use of the morphine syrettes which became available during the war. These were of course very simple one shot use for a quarter grain dose which had to be marked on the patients forehead. They were not "Medics", indeed the British ORBAT has no equivalent to the US Army "Medic". All other medications held at Regimental level were kept padlocked in the Regimental Pannier.
This is a very interesting comparison subject to me - I hope those looking solely for German information will forgive the comparative info on British units I have mentioned Within my part in a re-enactment group I am trying to find out more about the "opposing sides" medical arrangement becuase it is amazing what questions the public will ask!
Regards
Matt
Re: Medical Units
there is a good book out about german army medical units in english called the german army medical corps in ww2 by alex buchner i hope this helps
- Matt Gibbs
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Re: Medical Units
Thank, very handy, I shall look out for it, as background reading. I went to the medical museum in Leeds - the Thackray - and saw some lovely Aesculap 1938 catalogues there. Its amazing and great how most of the medical and surgical kit available was common to all nations, showing a greater sharing in this field than some other technologies. I learned that at that time it was not considered honourable to patent a new medical instrument, so the idea could be freely shared around, usually the inventor doctor or surgeons name would be given to the item.
Regards
Matt
Regards
Matt