Why reenact the Waffen-SS?

[Daniel]

I know very well about the distrust within the Wehrmacht against Hitler. Despite this Wehrmacht fought for Hitler to the bitter end. Considering that millions and millions served in the ranks of the Wehrmacht there where very little action to stop him, much more could have been done if there was enough will.

Could the educator now tell us about "the world is laughing"? I begin thinking that you see yourself as "the world" high up on your mountaintop.

[LTC Tim]

The argument espoused here from this other guy is because there was blood on everyone's hands, it is OK to do W-SS because everyone is equally as guilty. It is a fallacy and painting everyone with a broad brush. The SS, W-SS and police, controlled by the SS, did the mass majority of attrocities, organized killings and ran the death camps and the other apparatus. Which death camp was ran by the Heer? Maybe I missed one somewhere.

I don't have a problem with others renacting SS, but it just has no attraction to me. I just can't reeenact a morally corrupt organization. The SS was carrying out the racial policies of the Nazis and the Heer was doing the work that every other military did in WWII. There are small exceptions in each case, but exceptions are just those...rare differences from the norm.

I watched Rich Iott get eaten for lunch by Anderson Cooper, and I didn't expect any less. The simplest and most effective argument for reenacting German is "someone has to play the other side." When you start splitting hairs, it usually falls apart in a public realm. This isn't a public realm though, and we are talking historical facts for this discussion.

It is easy to see why there are problems with German reenacting with some of the lines of thought here. True believers, revisionists, and people who think the Nazis were just cool but misguided pop up now and again, and cause everyone else grief. Usually the SS impression attracts the crazies in the hobby, and are the ones who always find the reporter in a crowd of 10,000.

LTC Tim

[dagda]

Wrong! There is a lot of photographic evidence of Wehrmacht troops commiting atrocities in Russia. Yes the the ss were a politicised organisation, but so too were other branches of the armed forces.

It was the wehrmacht high command who were part of the plot to kill Hitler, the majority of which went along with Hitler and implemented the 'commissar' decree.I find that the simplistic statements of SS bad , Heer good somewhat clashing with the actual history.

[Daniel]

The argument espoused here from this other guy is because there was blood on everyone's hands, it is OK to do W-SS because everyone is equally as guilty. It is a fallacy and painting everyone with a broad brush. The SS, W-SS and police, controlled by the SS, did the mass majority of attrocities, organized killings and ran the death camps and the other apparatus. Which death camp was ran by the Heer? Maybe I missed one somewhere.

I want to be very clear that I don´t defend nor deny the crimes done by the Waffen-SS. But there is a difference between the different branches within the SS AND overwhelming majority of the soldiers who served in the Waffen-SS did not take part in the Holocast. This is fact and NOT a way for me to excuse what I´m doing. Would I like to reenact a KZ-prisoner guard? No I wouldn't!

I don't have a problem with others renacting SS, but it just has no attraction to me. I just can't reeenact a morally corrupt organization. The SS was carrying out the racial policies of the Nazis and the Heer was doing the work that every other military did in WWII. There are small exceptions in each case, but exceptions are just those...rare differences from the norm.

Please read this.

[m1steelpot]

Take it or leave it, but at the end of the day, as a "German" reenactor, you're representing the Nazi's. One may have not been a party member, but all who were in the WH, SS, LW, and KM are linked to the crimes of the Nazis.

Even if one wasn't a camp guard, being in active service to the regime that caused these crimes links one to them. I reenact as a WH Soldier simply because I find the hobby fun, I like the group I'm in, I speak German, and the uniform looked better on me than my US one. Whatever. I don't need a reason other than I like it.

[Daniel]

Take it or leave it, but at the end of the day, as a "German" reenactor, you're representing the Nazi's. One may have not been a party member, but all who were in the WH, SS, LW, and KM are linked to the crimes of the Nazis.

Even if one wasn't a camp guard, being in active service to the regime that caused these crimes links one to them. I reenact as a WH Soldier simply because I find the hobby fun, I like the group I'm in, I speak German, and the uniform looked better on me than my US one. Whatever. I don't need a reason other than I like it.

Amen

[B Hellqvist]

Our visitor base is well aware of Ford’s past, and the millions of them don’t seem to hold me or my co-workers accountable for the person of Henry Ford.

They must be very well read indeed, as the HFM site just makes a passing mention about one of his antisemitic activities.

With such a juvenile approach to making a contribution to this discussion, It’s not even worth it to explain how your logic fails. Why do you need to have a background check in order to discuss our ideas? And what makes you think anybody’s accusing anybody else? Demonizing your opponent usually means you’re out of other options. Or you’re just in a really deep temper tantrum.

And belittling others is a good way of carrying the discussion forward, right? Keep it up - you are good at it.

[Daniel]

Some questions:

Would the crimes on the eastern front have been possible without the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine?
The answer is of course no.
Does this make all who fought in these branches criminal? I would say no.

We know that the soldiers in the Waffen-SS in some form (may have varied during time) have politics on their schedule during their education which the soldier in the Heer not have.
Does this mean that all soldiers in the Waffen-SS where fanatic Nazis and that the soldier in the Heer never could have been this? I would say no.

Should we always consider those in Germany (and in the rest of the world) who where Nazis during the war as criminals? I would say no. I say that criminals mainly should be judge for what they have done, not for their thoughts.

Did the soldiers who served in the Waffen-SS take part in crimes against civilians and Jews? Yes, it´s estimated than less then 10% did so. Does this make all who served in the Waffen-SS to criminals? I would say no.

Do I see the Waffen-SS as en elite unit? Yes, as much as I see the Heer as an elite unit. The answer is of course no. Within the Waffen-SS there where elite units as it where elite units within the Heer.

Do I think that there are any unserious reenactors who portrays soldiers of the Waffen-SS? I have myself very little "live" experience of this but I have on forums and other places seen proof of this, so the answer must be yes.
Do I see this as a problem? It´s always a problem when reenactors are unserious.

Do I agree with people who thinks it´s wrong to portray soldiers of the Waffen-SS since there are some (some is always to many when it´s bad) unserious reenactors or groups doing it? Yes, as much as I agree with one who have been robbed by a black man and now hates all blacks. The answer is no.

Do I understand that it could be a bigger problem with unserious WSS-reenactors than other reenactors? Yes, I do understand this and therefore I try to be very serious in what I and the group I'm a member of are doing.

Why do I think it´s a bigger problem with unsererious reenactors who portrays soldiers of the Waffen-SS than other units?
Mainly because the Waffen-SS is surrounded by a lot of myths and bias such as they all where an elite, they all where arians and fanatic nazis, they all take part of the Holocaust and served in the KZ camps and so on and so on. Yes, some where an elite, some where blond and blue eyed and fanatic Nazis and some take part in the Holocaust with out a doubt. I'm sure that more soldiers of the Waffen-SS participate in criminal actions than soldiers of the other branches within the Wehrmacht and to serve in the Waffen-SS where not exactly the same as to serve in Heer, there where a difference. The biggest difference where though that there where thousands and thousands of foreign volunteers who fought in the Waffen-SS.

[LTC Tim]

I missed the reply to this question...which death camp did the Heer run? I didn't see the answer to that question in the rebuttals to my posting.

LTC Tim

[Daniel]

I missed the reply to this question...which death camp did the Heer run? I didn't see the answer to that question in the rebuttals to my posting.

LTC Tim

I didn´t thought that I had to answer that question since both you and I know the answer. But for your information the Heer didn´t run any KZ camp.

Please, answer then this question:

Would the crimes on the eastern front have been possible without the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine?

[LTC Tim]

Yes...very much so because the SS was a structure built for the purpose of carrying out the racial/political policies of the Nazi regime.

This thread shows they were already at it by 1940! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=176490

LTC Tim

[Drew Maynard]

Gents:

I find alot of this thread quite...amusing.

It's been kept pretty civil, surprsingly. But however, I'm amazed at how often the 'reenacting community' wants to censor itself and become very inwards-abusive.

Do you really think that for all the pissing and moaning about reenacting in whole, that picking on - and that's what this thread seems to be- a branch of the armed forces, is doing anything but alienating each other at the same time throwing up walls between units?

Or is it a matter of some justifying what they want to do, while ostracizing others for their choices in their impression. It's a dirty, convoluted one way street. We can sit here and pick apart 'what KZ did the Heer run' and ad nauseum to the smallest minutae, or throw in 15-dollar words to offset the real messages by distancing others' replies.

But it's simple: and I hate to jump into the shallow end of the pool- if you think Waffen-SS reenactors- admittedly, I am one of them- are 'tarnishing reenacting' or portraying 'evil nazi german blah blah' units, while your own units are 'clean' and 'war crime' free, then look in the mirror, you're fooling yourself.

Every unit was guilty of war crimes, and that goes without saying, through the ages. When we're selective about one incident, or the incidents of battalions, brigades, divisions or armies, we minimalize the others. For every mention of the KZ camps- and yes, Waffen-SS units were aware and often complicit in them, from SS/TV to Totenkopf to LAH units who were in the hospitals there and the heer men transferred to KZ camps, police men etc., no one mentions the Heer men and Police men, present at the murder, razing and elimination of the town of Lidice after Heydrich's assasination. Show me a photo of an SS man there- they're all Heer, Polizei-manner.

So what i'm trying to illustrate here is, if you sling mud, there's tons of reserves to fling back. Such as the example above and if you think that the Heer was -National Socialist' free or non-indoctrinated, you're being selective, even revisionist in your own thinking. Where do you think all the politically-motivated SA men went to? What unit was mainly responsible for hunting down Black colonial French forces in France with Totenkopf? What Heer unit was the chief force in putting down the 'Valkyrie' putsch to maintain Hitler's NS-regime? See, it's easy and only with a couple of examples.

My point is that all branches of the Third Reich, marched, sang and fought under the hakenkreuz flag. All of your uniforms, helmets, weapons are marked or decorated, or stamped with the hakenkreuz.

But no one, unless they're a sick sociopath, is interested in portraying KZ members. We're all, to my knowledge, attempting to recreate COMBAT units. We're not portraying political officers assigned to units, nor einsatzgruppen.

Lighten up, do some research and realize we do it for fun, because the uniforms/weaponry/equipment are very alluring and that we're all interested, to some degree, in learning historical fact.

So, 'why the waffen', in essence, 'why not?'

D

[D.Laurent]

No, if it isn't seriously done, because it's not about who has massacred the most but what was their motivations.

Face it, the waffen ss is a super policeman, a repressive force made of volunteers to defend the nazi party from everybody else. They were involved into the war for propaganda purpose, to claim after the war the part of the honor (a huge part over wehrmacht thx to goebbels) and represent the nazi party into the fights.
They weren't all nazis or fanatic but they volunteers for fighting the nazis as could an american fight for al qaida for money.

The army was nazy too and has commited numerous war crimes but they were composed of many enlist people doing their army service or carreist in a ex-prussian army.


Again some people are always try to put at the same level those 2 entities which are very different.
The problem is not about reenactment of waffen ss but about the fact reenactors are unable to portray waffen ss as a political unit and dilute it into the heer reenactment or simply overrepresent it.

Reenactment should be for pedagy and not for people who want to play war.

[Daniel]

Yes...very much so because the SS was a structure built for the purpose of carrying out the racial/political policies of the Nazi regime.

This thread shows they were already at it by 1940! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=176490

LTC Tim

I will give you a second chance to get it right LTC. Please read the question again:

Would the crimes on the eastern front have been possible without the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine?

Some help on the road:
When Germany attacked Poland in September 1939 they used 60 divisions (1 500 000 soldiers), 6 brigades, 9000 guns, 2750 tanks and 2315 aircrafts. SS by this time where not even a full division, they where less then 20 000.
Poland had more than 500 000 soldiers, 4300 guns, 800 tanks and 400 airplanes.

With this (new ?) knowledge I would like to know if you still think that the crimes on the eastern front would have been possible without the Heer and Luftwaffe?

If you need further help I can tell you that these SS-troops alone would have been smashed within days - if they where lucky.

I don´t think that I now have to tell you what would have happened if the Waffen-SS would have attacked Russia alone...

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Daniel,

It was the military success of the German Army on the Eastern Front that created the permissive environment for SS of all shades to undertake their ideologically-motivated barbarities. In the sense that the German Army was the shield behind which the SS acted, it is to a degree implicated in its activities.

However, had the SS not existed, it seems unlikely that Nazi policies would have found such willing enablers in the Army alone.

It is worth noting that all Waffen-SS divisions (except a very few very late war creations of short existence) contained officers who are known to have served in the camps as well. Thus the leadership of the Waffen-SS is implicated by both actions and association with what went on in them. The same cannot be said of the, admittedly less than entirely blameless, German Army.

By contrast to its vitalness in pursuing Nazi ideological atrocities, the SS was never indispensible to achieving a single one of Germany's military conquests.

So it remains something of a mystery why anyone interested in military, rather than ideological, history would prefer to re-enact the Waffen-SS rather than the Heer.