SS in Italian camo questions

[Sapper44]

Guys;
What SS units other than the 1st and 12th SS would have gotten issues of Italian camo? It seems to me that the 16th being in Italy would have had some, and the 7th and 13th in the Balkans would have had it when they disarmed the Italians, or even the 2nd refitting in Southern France where there had been a large Italian garrison? What are your thoughts on it?
Thanks;
Christian

[JurgenHaack]

The widespread use of Italian M29 camo by the Germans coincided with the 1943 disarmament of the Italian forces. Both 1.SS-Panzer-Division LAH and 12.SS-Panzer-Division HJ participated in the process. It is no big surprise that members of these two divisions judging by wartime photos were the most conspicuous users of Italian camouflage material.

Following the capitulation and disarmament of most of the Italian armed forces in 1943, stocks of Italian material were used by Germany to meet the increased demand for equipment in the face of the slowly deteriorating wartime economy. The German armed forces not only issued already existing stocks of Italian shelter halves, they used the Italian camouflage material to make a wide variety of uniforms and field gear items. Many of these uniform items were tailor made or theater made including jackes, hosen, kombis and mutzen. The material was also used to make some standard issue items such as M31 zeltbahns and fur lined anoraks which were typically made out of mouse grey material. An important thing to note is that items made using Italian camo material were used by all branches of the German armed forces serving in the Italian theater of operations Heer, SS, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

[StigRoadie]

The German armed forces not only issued already existing stocks of Italian shelter halves

Did they? Why? Who to?
The Italian telo mimetico M29 half is not comparable with the German M31 zeltbahn system. you would have to re equip whole units with the Italian stuff, poles, ropes et al.
The only use of the Italian pattern I have seen is made up as m31 zeltbahn as you mention. Never seen any issue of the M29 to German troops. This would be some good news if you can back it up?

[JurgenHaack]

Stig,

Perhaps my fingers were moving faster than my brain in regards to the M29 shelter halfs? I do not have any photo's to support this theory but at the same time I feel one or two photo's do not really prove much other then at least the men or unit photographed used a certain item when the picture was taken. You asked why? Well as stated in my original post and a fact we can agree on is Germany's almost non-existent supply towards the end of the war. Let's face it, if they could get weapons, clothing, wool, material, etc from the Italians I am sure shelter halfs, rope and poles would not be a problem. You asked who? I feel confident in saying the troops that were in the Italian theater.

Like you all I have ever seen in period photo's is the M31 zelt made with M29 camo and they are rare but I don't think we can say 100% they did not use Italian M29 shelter halfs either.

Now, am I saying let's all go out buy and use Italian shelter halfs? No.

Jurgen

[Captain Cogle]

The German armed forces not only issued already existing stocks of Italian shelter halves

Did they? Why? Who to?
The Italian telo mimetico M29 half is not comparable with the German M31 zeltbahn system. you would have to re equip whole units with the Italian stuff, poles, ropes et al.
The only use of the Italian pattern I have seen is made up as m31 zeltbahn as you mention. Never seen any issue of the M29 to German troops. This would be some good news if you can back it up?

You would not have to equip units with new poles, ropes or anything else in order to use the M29 telo. The German poles, ropes and such work just fine. For that matter, you can even button the triangular German M31's to Italian M29's with out trouble. It's just ugly as hell and it is not unsual to see soldiers throwing together shelters not following any textbook example. All one needs is 1 shelter half or more and some rope.

[panzerhan]

Are there any instances of Italian camouflage use by the German forces before the Italian armistice? For example Sicily?

[SMIDSY]

The German armed forces not only issued already existing stocks of Italian shelter halves

Did they? Why? Who to?
The Italian telo mimetico M29 half is not comparable with the German M31 zeltbahn system. you would have to re equip whole units with the Italian stuff, poles, ropes et al.
The only use of the Italian pattern I have seen is made up as m31 zeltbahn as you mention. Never seen any issue of the M29 to German troops. This would be some good news if you can back it up?

You would not have to equip units with new poles, ropes or anything else in order to use the M29 telo. The German poles, ropes and such work just fine. For that matter, you can even button the triangular German M31's to Italian M29's with out trouble. It's just ugly as hell and it is not unsual to see soldiers throwing together shelters not following any textbook example. All one needs is 1 shelter half or more and some rope.

You forget that shelter halves can be harvested as raw material for uniform items. So just because units got shelter halves, does not have to mean that they were for use as shelters. Furthermore, shelters can be easily made using nothing but found items and rope. You don't need the exact setup you learned in boot camp.

[StigRoadie]

So who carries all these extra shelter halves around for those lucky enough to be issued them?
What kind of group shelter do you make if you have 3 guys with M31 and one with an M29? Not the useful zelt tent thats for sure.
Why disrupt what was already a struggling supply chain with a random bit of kit?
I can understand guys picking up odd m29 or units grabbing bundles of them to use for the cloth or taking bolts of cloth, I cant see the systematic issue of a non complimentary system.
Lots of speculation here guys, is that how you do history here?
I prefer some more solid ground before I'm convinced.
I will be checking just how well M29 button to M31 and how well the poles all work on Thursday. I'll let you know how I get on.

[Alanmccoubrey]

The widespread use of Italian M29 camo by the Germans coincided with the 1943 disarmament of the Italian forces. Both 1.SS-Panzer-Division LAH and 12.SS-Panzer-Division HJ participated in the process. It is no big surprise that members of these two divisions judging by wartime photos were the most conspicuous users of Italian camouflage material.

That is not true, 12 SS PD HJ had nothing whatsoever to do with disarming the Italians.

[Ian Hulley]

The widespread use of Italian M29 camo by the Germans coincided with the 1943 disarmament of the Italian forces. Both 1.SS-Panzer-Division LAH and 12.SS-Panzer-Division HJ participated in the process. It is no big surprise that members of these two divisions judging by wartime photos were the most conspicuous users of Italian camouflage material.

That is not true, 12 SS PD HJ had nothing whatsoever to do with disarming the Italians.

Agreed entirely ... some of the cadre troops from the LAH however probably did. The 'HJ' itself wasn't moved from Beverloo to join the I SS Panzer Korps in Caen until March '44, 6 months after the Italian Armistice.

Ian

[StigRoadie]

For that matter, you can even button the triangular German M31's to Italian M29's with out trouble.

I had a go at this today.
Without trouble? Sorry, no, lots of trouble.
I used an original splinter zelt and an original Italian M29[the one with the hole for your head] and they dont go together at all well. The buttons are pitched at different centers, the most I could close on one side was three. The overlap between adjacent sections is much greater on the Italian section so you cant double button as you would with a regular zelt.
The length of the sides of each section is very different, its a shambles. Why would you bother trying to mash something from a mix of types when there are plenty of issue zeltbahn around?
I can see where you might want the square Italian type for a ground sheet or even as top cover on a foxhole but to muck about trying to build a shelter from the two types is a waste of time. It just wont be weather proof, too many gaps and not enough buttons.