Reichskanzlei Thread

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2086

Post by Mister S » 22 Jan 2017, 23:16

No, there was always a driveway, whether it was for horses or cars, even back to the era of the Radziwiłł Palais. The far left of the gate is viewed in the drawing. Here is a picture of the Chancellery when it was owned by the Radziwiłłs.
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palais radziwill.jpg

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ghostsoldier
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2087

Post by ghostsoldier » 23 Jan 2017, 02:42

Those architectural drawings are simply amazing...good find, Mister S! :)

Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)


Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2088

Post by Mister S » 23 Jan 2017, 19:07

Got some more. In the picture showing the destroyed Chancellery, the rooms above the marble gallery are visible. Does anybody know what was up there? It appears to be two split sections, but nothing is visible showing their use. It seems like a big section of the Chancellery that is not accounted for in anything I have ever seen. Any guesses would be helpful.

Mister S
Attachments
img_neuereichskanzlei_28_hr.jpg
Voßstraße Façade construction
img_neuereichskanzlei_28_hr.jpg (474.06 KiB) Viewed 1291 times
Reich-Chancellery-12.jpg
Destroyed Chancellery
img_neuereichskanzlei_31_hr.jpg
Garden Façade construction

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2089

Post by Mannheim » 23 Jan 2017, 23:12

I'm pretty sute the upstairs rooms were offices. I seem to recall also that they were surprisingly small and box-like. I'll check my sources - particularly Ronald Pawly's "Hitler's Chancellery" - when I get a chance.
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2090

Post by Mister S » 24 Jan 2017, 01:18

Mannheim wrote:I'm pretty sute the upstairs rooms were offices. I seem to recall also that they were surprisingly small and box-like. I'll check my sources - particularly Ronald Pawly's "Hitler's Chancellery" - when I get a chance.
I'll save you the trouble, since I also own that wonderful book. I searched through, and on page 91, Mr. Pawly describes it as "On the upper floor of the Mittelbau block were the offices of the Party Chancellery under Reichslieter Bouhler." I quickly read this book awhile ago, and I probably missed that detail. Pawly goes on to explain that "Although they were not public spaces, great attention was given to the design, decoration, and furnishing of all these areas. Each staircase, corridor, office and waiting room was constructed with the same degree of care, there were no neglected areas in the New Chancellery building."

I have attached a picture. I have seen this hallway a few times in pictures. It looks to be the correct shape and hight, but it could also be a hallway in the east or west wing. If anybody knows where the picture was taken, I would be very happy! :D

Check your other sources if you find time. Any more details, or pictures of these smaller rooms would be greatly appreciated.

And for those who haven't read Ronald Pawly's book "Hitler's Chancellery", I would suggest doing so for some more Chancellery knowledge (although there are a few errors within this book which have been previously addressed in this thread, mostly in regards to the final section, Hitlers Last Headquarters, and not the Chancellery itself).


Mister S
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Chancellery unknown hallway.jpg

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ghostsoldier
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2091

Post by ghostsoldier » 24 Jan 2017, 20:21

Yes, Pawley's book is great...I also recommend Ray & Josephine Cowdery's The New German Reichschancellery in Berlin 1938-1945.

Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)

Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2092

Post by Mister S » 24 Jan 2017, 20:36

ghostsoldier wrote:Yes, Pawley's book is great...I also recommend Ray & Josephine Cowdery's The New German Reichschancellery in Berlin 1938-1945.

Rob
Yeah, that one is great too. However, it is mostly just a translation of Albert Speeds book "Die Neue Reichskanzlei", and it features testimonials from visitors, builders, and Hitler himself. It also has advertisements from contractors, that feature rare images of electrical systems, and the Chancellery kitchen, as well as some other stuff. The newer 2003 version was a quick read, though. I read it all in a 2 hour sitting. The combination of the beautiful full page pictures, and the silky smooth, high quality paper it is printed on make for a perfect picture book for anyone interested in the RK. The 1980s version is the older version of the 2003 book, so if you are buying it, get the 2003 one, you won't find any more information in the 1980s copy.

Mister S.

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Fait-Accompli
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2093

Post by Fait-Accompli » 25 Jan 2017, 01:40

I took a stroll down Vossstrasse today. I haven't been to Berlin in over 15 years, and I can't believe the changes that have taken place, especially in Mitte, south of the Brandenburg Gate. Some of the old sites in Berlin that, previously, had looked basically like they did at the end of WW2 (such as the Anhalter rail yards, and the old tracks next to the Hamburger Bahnhof), have now been erased and replaced with parks and new buildings.

Anyhow, I'm curious why the parking lot at the northeastern end of Vossstrasse has remained undeveloped. I don't buy the idea that developers are skittish to build on that particular parcel because of its notorious history, given that the northwestern end of the street has now been completely filled-in (Singapore Embassy, etc). Is it possible that the city government is preserving the parking lot in expectation that it will eventually tear down and redevelop the apartment building site at Vossstrasse and Wilhelmstrasse?

Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2094

Post by Mister S » 25 Jan 2017, 04:31

Fait-Accompli wrote:I took a stroll down Vossstrasse today. I haven't been to Berlin in over 15 years, and I can't believe the changes that have taken place, especially in Mitte, south of the Brandenburg Gate. Some of the old sites in Berlin that, previously, had looked basically like they did at the end of WW2 (such as the Anhalter rail yards, and the old tracks next to the Hamburger Bahnhof), have now been erased and replaced with parks and new buildings.

Anyhow, I'm curious why the parking lot at the northeastern end of Vossstrasse has remained undeveloped. I don't buy the idea that developers are skittish to build on that particular parcel because of its notorious history, given that the northwestern end of the street has now been completely filled-in (Singapore Embassy, etc). Is it possible that the city government is preserving the parking lot in expectation that it will eventually tear down and redevelop the apartment building site at Vossstrasse and Wilhelmstrasse?
I think it is the city government that might prevent development on the site, but they already allowed a apartment block and a parking lot there, so I sort of doubt it is that, but rather the fact that they need a parking lot.

I know that on the northwestern end of Vossstrasse, there is the "Fahrerbunker", or, translated "Drivers Bunker", which the city has halted any development on when they found it in 1992. This bunker was built in 1943 to house the moterpool of the Chancellery, up to around 40 drivers, and included beds, sinks, bathrooms, and storage areas. I know there is an above ground entrance somewhere, I have never been to the site. I have heard it is either a manhole cover, or a trapdoor, or something of the sort. It has been locked off, but all of the original stuff is still under there, barely touched and not demolished, including the famous wall pantings, shown in some of the pictures I have attached.

I would love to visit the sight, hopefully sometime I will take a trek out to Berlin, and finally visit the infamous landmark location. If you are still in Berlin, go check out the entrance of the Drivers Bunker entrance, which should be somewhere around the "Ottobock Science Center" over on the west end. I attached a map, which has been mentioned in this thread, showing all the bunkers, including the Fuhrerbunker and the Fahrerbunker, in comparison to a few of the surrounding areas (this map might not be up to date). If you are extra adventurous, you could crowbar your way in :wink:.
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drivers bunker.jpg
Map of the bunker systems
drivers bunker.jpg (120.5 KiB) Viewed 1208 times
fahrerbunker wall painting 2.jpg
fahrerbunker wall painting
fahrerbunker wall painting 2.jpg (56.06 KiB) Viewed 1208 times
fahrerbunker wall painting.jpg
fahrerbunker wall painting close up
Fahrerbunker Sink.jpg
Fahrerbunker Sink
Fahrerbunker Sink.jpg (46.34 KiB) Viewed 1208 times
Fahrerbunker toilets.jpg
Fahrerbunker Toilet
Fahrerbunker toilets.jpg (45.68 KiB) Viewed 1208 times

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Fait-Accompli
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2095

Post by Fait-Accompli » 25 Jan 2017, 09:55

No way is that going to remain a parking lot. Not in that neighborhood. And the lot isn't even paved.

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2096

Post by Mannheim » 26 Jan 2017, 00:54

I took some photos of the site in 2011 when it was still possible to sneak an unauthorised look at the then-current car park. I know that if the photos are of the drivers' bunker site, they would be at the extreme (Voss Strasse) end. In 2015 when I returned, this area was pretty much gone. I have no idea what the concrete slab was but I fondly hoped it would be part of the bunker roof.
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carpark 1.jpg
carpark 2.jpg
carpark 3.jpg
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2097

Post by Mannheim » 26 Jan 2017, 00:57

... and in the interest of injecting some new blood into this thread, here are a few more.
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carpark 4.jpg
Carpark 5.jpg
carpark 6.jpg
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2098

Post by Mister S » 26 Jan 2017, 06:38

Mannheim wrote:I took some photos of the site in 2011 when it was still possible to sneak an unauthorised look at the then-current car park. I know that if the photos are of the drivers' bunker site, they would be at the extreme (Voss Strasse) end. In 2015 when I returned, this area was pretty much gone. I have no idea what the concrete slab was but I fondly hoped it would be part of the bunker roof.
Great pictures Mannheim. Too bad the site is already developed, as I would have loved to have visited it when it was somewhat open to roam. Lucky you!

I don't think they could have done anything to the bunker without anybody knowing, so it should still be under there, under all of that dirt. I believe, however, that the drivers bunker was farther below the ground than your pictures showed. From what I understand, it was connected to the garage, and it was farther below the garage (which was already below the ground), and considering that it was built to protect the inhabitants, it seems like that concrete slab is a bit too close to the surface. Maybe it was the foundation to a building, or something of the sort? I could easily be wrong, but that is my hunch. If that slab was the roof, they must have lowered the ground height somewhat over their endless years of landscaping.

Mister S

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2099

Post by Mannheim » 26 Jan 2017, 06:59

Yes, I think you're right, Mister S, about the concrete slab although it's hard to imagine what it could have been given that - if I'm correct - it is/was in this area (see red square in attachment). The second photo (source on photo) shows the area in 1945. I don't think the slab was part of the RK foundations as all of that was dug up when the building was demolished. The third photo shows a surviving piece of the RK that used to be outside a site which advertised DDR memorabilia on the boardwalk facing the Jewish Memorial. Both the site and the lump of concrete were gone when I went back in 2015. The sign that accompanied the concrete lump said it was the only surviving piece of the RK (doubtful) and that it was part of a window frame or lintel, if I remember correctly. I'll see if I have a better copy of the photo.
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carpark 11.jpg
carpark 11.jpg (148.28 KiB) Viewed 1136 times
berlin-rk_2.jpg
berlin-rk_2.jpg (84.76 KiB) Viewed 1136 times
Kanzlei lump.jpg
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mister S
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#2100

Post by Mister S » 26 Jan 2017, 08:05

Mannheim wrote:Yes, I think you're right, Mister S, about the concrete slab although it's hard to imagine what it could have been given that - if I'm correct - it is/was in this area (see red square in attachment). The second photo (source on photo) shows the area in 1945. I don't think the slab was part of the RK foundations as all of that was dug up when the building was demolished. The third photo shows a surviving piece of the RK that used to be outside a site which advertised DDR memorabilia on the boardwalk facing the Jewish Memorial. Both the site and the lump of concrete were gone when I went back in 2015. The sign that accompanied the concrete lump said it was the only surviving piece of the RK (doubtful) and that it was part of a window frame or lintel, if I remember correctly. I'll see if I have a better copy of the photo.
Yeah, I was thinking it was maybe a foundation of something else in the area, although, I cant be certain, since I wasn't there to take those pictures. It could be the remains of the sidewalk thing that ran from Hitlers office portal down the entire section of mittelbau on the garden side? Seems like a stretch, but maybe. It could be really anything for all we know, concrete was (and is) used for pretty much anything and everything. Interesting pictures, but I think the bunker is covered up, and not visible through anything, but I have heard there is still an entrance somewhere above ground (which I somewhat doubt) that has been blocked off. Do you know anything about that? The information I have of the drivers bunker and where I got it from is pretty mixed up at this point :?.

Mister S

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