aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

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mty
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#16

Post by mty » 11 Feb 2008, 11:14

Grisu wrote:mty,

you write about the "ideals of Himmler and Darré", which left me wondering whether it is possible to say what intellectual impact Himmler had as a theoretician. Was he a genuine, independent, self-contained leading thinker who came up with his own ideas, hypothesis and conclusions? Or was he more like someone amalgamating pre-existing views (which would also require some intellectual capacities, I would assume)? As you seem to be knowledgeable in this area, it would be great if you could briefly comment on this (or hint at a book/article/thread on the issue). Thank you.
Himmler adopted his ideals of racial purity and Nordicism from various sources, over almost a decade. Beginning in the early to mid 1920's, he often read literature which covered such themes - like the race theoretician Hans F.K. Günther's "Ritter, Tod und Teufel" and works of H.S. Chamberlain - though usually in fiction. Also his anti-semitism which had its roots already before Himmler's NSDAP days, evolved simultaneously.

When he was appointed Reichsführer-SS in early 1929, he first set up to strengthen his tiny organization and the initial recruiting standards laid out had not that much to do with specific racial than with physical and loyalty requirements. When the SS began to grow larger (ca. 1931-1932), the racial viewpoints started to take more and more of his time and devotion and they were seen as both necessary and handy way to moderate the growth and steer it towards the wanted direction. Darré and Himmler had much in common since both of them had a university degree in agronomy and held similar nationalist romantic views of Gerrman peasanthood as untainted redoubt of racial and spiritual purity. Darré took this viewpoint even further, emphasizing the signifigance of "Blut und Boden" thought. The racial selection criteria of the SS was a curious mixture of contemporary European scientific views combined with the Nordic myth and mysticism of pure blood. Thus, there was a clear criteria of acceptable set of values (dimensions of body and head, overall stature, eyes, facial profile, hair - but no single overriding decisive element) which candidates had to meet. According to Himmler, the applicants were then ranked to one of five possible categories: of them, only those grouped to first category (completely Nordic) could be accpeted straight away, decisions regarding those of categories II and III (IIRC, those with detectable Nordic traits but harmonous admixture of Alpic, Baltid or Dinaric blood) were left to Himmler. He then personally vetted the photos submitted by applicants and judged his suitability with bare eyes.

This describes well the interesting combination of unescapable physical measuring and arbitrary selection by instinct and feeling. Himmler didn't even try to conceal this - instead he boasted to be one of the best judges of Nordic manhood and, that determining who was Nordic enough and who wasn't could not be done only by relying on measuring and ancestral charts, it had more to do with screening the applicant thoroughly and observing his character and behaviour in every possible way. This might have had something to do with Himmler's failure to match up the strict anatomic/morphologic standards of Nordic race as defined by scholars.

My sources for Himmler's concepts are Peter Padfield's Himmler biography and more general studies of Allgemeine-SS. I haven't yet been able to get a decent book on RuSHA but such a book would certainly lit more light into this more obscure - but still central - aspect of the SS.

- Mikko

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Grisu
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#17

Post by Grisu » 11 Feb 2008, 19:14

Thanks a lot, Mikko -- Very, very enlightening posting!


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Truffelschwein
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#18

Post by Truffelschwein » 11 Feb 2008, 21:13

Not that I buy into any of the "nordish" classifications, I consider them pseudo scientific, however if they were reliable I would probably look most like a "Trønder", even though I'm from mostly anglo-saxon origin. Essentially what that site does is cherry-pick examples of individuals who look similar (some of whom are from common ancestry, some who aren't) and classify them into imaginary racial subgroups.

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Ehrenritter
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#19

Post by Ehrenritter » 17 Feb 2008, 04:36

If we accept that aryan is the same that indoeuropean, the ancients greeks were undoubtedly indoeuropean but it's a fact that they weren't blonde and blue haired, in fact, Aristotle said that the helenes (greeks) were the racial ``aurea mediocritas´´ because they were not so black as the ethiopians or egyptians but neither so white as the ``peoples of the nort´´.

It's only a fact of genetic selection, if for example, you put some fair people in hotter and sunny areas, the most adapted to the habitat (in this case turning the hair black for example) will survive; the law it's clear, envolve or die. So the descendents of that fair people will eventually turn more darker if they live in a natural way (other question it's if they live in civilization)

So, nordic and aryan (indoeuropean) are differents concepts.

About how were (phisically) those supposed proto-indoeuropeans (the ``fathers´´ of the succesive aryan people) there are no evidence to establish that they were blonde and bule-eyed

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#20

Post by Qvist » 27 Feb 2008, 14:01

Yes well, I don't think there's a need to start discussing these theories as if they were meaningful scientific claims - we can take it as understood that what we are dealing with here is politicised pseudo-science. That is why we are discussing them in the propaganda section.

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JoeRt
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#21

Post by JoeRt » 07 Mar 2008, 00:51

Mr.mty seems to have good knowledge of what he talks about.
He emphasised of the connection of Himmler and Darre as being both agronomists.
Because of that thay had good knowledge of genetics and breeding and even if we accept that racial purity is a myth they could easily pass their ideas to people who where not familiar with that spectrum of science.
I think that it is not pseudo-science to say that if they managed to find and somehow isolate (not so geographically but more in a way of controlled "breeding") a population that fitted their standards (and i dont mean 200-300 people but more like a couple of millions), they would have succeded in keeping some racial characteristics they wanted and they would multiply the number of people that would have them through that "controlled breeding".

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#22

Post by Qvist » 07 Mar 2008, 13:08

Fine, then find a biology forum that is willing to take the subject on.

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Myron
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#23

Post by Myron » 07 Mar 2008, 20:49

JoeRt wrote:Mr.mty seems to have good knowledge of what he talks about.
He emphasised of the connection of Himmler and Darre as being both agronomists.
Because of that thay had good knowledge of genetics and breeding and even if we accept that racial purity is a myth they could easily pass their ideas to people who where not familiar with that spectrum of science.
I think that it is not pseudo-science to say that if they managed to find and somehow isolate (not so geographically but more in a way of controlled "breeding") a population that fitted their standards (and i dont mean 200-300 people but more like a couple of millions), they would have succeded in keeping some racial characteristics they wanted and they would multiply the number of people that would have them through that "controlled breeding".
A book of possible interest, if you don't already have it, is Ute Deichmann's ”Biologists Under Hitler” (1996). The book is a general history and gives an insight to National Socialist thinking.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Biologists-Unde ... 128&sr=8-2
Last edited by Myron on 08 Mar 2008, 07:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#24

Post by Qvist » 08 Mar 2008, 00:14

Well, judging from the synopsis of Ms Deichmann's book, she does not argue that nazi racial policy was scientifically founded.

I make no judgment on the intentions of any poster so far, but for the record and for future clarification, I am not going to stand for a discussion of nazi racial thinking as if it was science, for the same reason that I wouldn't stand for a discussion about "why are Jews racially inferior?": It presupposes as reality what is in fact nazi ideological beliefs.

We are confident that contemporary science has firmly established that there is no scientific basis for racial theories, and that consequently such theories need to be understood as pseudo-science, politics or both. There may be some out there who disagrees with this, if so, let me assure you of our complete lack of interest in hearing your views on this issue on this board. Period.

Discussion of nazi racial policies and ideas understood as expressions of nazi politics and ideology (as opposed to science) are of course pertinent and welcome, within the limits of the guidelines in general.

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ThomasG
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#25

Post by ThomasG » 08 Mar 2008, 01:22

National Socialist anthropologists warned against using the word "Aryan" as a racial term. It is actually a linguistic term, meaning Indo-Europeans. Persians are an "Aryan" people but Finns and Hungarians are not. It goes without saying that the Nazis considered Finns and Hungarians racially more worthy than Persians.

Anthropologists in the 1930s divided European people to five races: Nordic, Alpine, Dinaric, Mediterranean and East-Baltic. The National Socialists followed this racial classification which was mainstream until the 1960s. For example, prof. Carleton Coon who was the president of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists supported this theory.

Some biologists pseudoscientifically claimed that the Nordic race is superior to others. This claim was problematic because so few Germans (particularly Bavarians and Austrians) actually belong to the Nordic race (as it was defined then). Thus, this Nordic supremacist thinking was gradually more or less abandoned. More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_theory

Jews were considered foreigners and persecuted because they generally belong to Orientalid / Armenid races which are not a part of German/European racial variation. Still, they were not usually considered (intellectually) inferior like blacks by Nazi anthropologists. See the writings of Eugen Fischer and Otmar Freiherr von Verschuer for more info about Nazi views of them.

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#26

Post by Qvist » 09 Mar 2008, 14:34

Two posts by JoeRt was removed, as they consisted entirely of intemperate and inappropriate diatribes against above posts.

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Reich Ruin
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#27

Post by Reich Ruin » 24 Mar 2008, 06:13

What really makes me scratch my head is the fact that there are Neo-Nazi groups today in Slavic countries like Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia etc. :? Slavs where usually considered sub-human by Nazi ideologues right? Not to mention the fact that the German forces invading the east persecuted citizens just for their Slavic ancestry. Where there any analogous groups to the Nazi party before and during the Second World War?

I also seem to remember that children, even those who belonged to Slavic and Asiatic ethnic families, where saved from extermination by Nazi scientists because they had "Germanic" features. Then these children where adopted back in the Reich to new families. :|

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Grisu
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#28

Post by Grisu » 26 Mar 2008, 12:59

Reich Ruin wrote:What really makes me scratch my head is the fact that there are Neo-Nazi groups today in Slavic countries like Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia etc. :? Slavs where usually considered sub-human by Nazi ideologues right? Not to mention the fact that the German forces invading the east persecuted citizens just for their Slavic ancestry. Where there any analogous groups to the Nazi party before and during the Second World War?
Based on my reading of various 'neo-nazi' websites I surfed some time ago, my understanding of the issue is that racial "aryan" features are not that relevant for the self-image and self-perception of these groups. Over-emphasising aspects such as racism, xenophobia and contempt for minorities (and, in analogy with these, the construction of an 'enemy') rather come to the fore. In addition, they seem to work well on "us vs. them"-polarisation (one people vs. 'the other') and scapegoat-mechanisms. This may be something like an over-simplification of NS ideology, but as far as I grasp the whole thing, it works for groups like the ones you mention.

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#29

Post by Qvist » 26 Mar 2008, 16:36

Let's stay on topic.

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Reich Ruin
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#30

Post by Reich Ruin » 27 Mar 2008, 04:19

Qvist wrote:Let's stay on topic.

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Mea Culpa, :oops:

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