aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

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bf109 emil
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#31

Post by bf109 emil » 30 Mar 2008, 03:54

Does anyone find it funny that the ideals laid out to form the Nazi party, race, and who's works laid the foundation so much as the Nazi's claimed him as one of their prophets. who Hitler met in '23 and he told him he was destined to lead Germany where Wilhelm II had failed in the second Reich...was an Englishman

as for blond hair,blue eyes, is this maybe a teuton outline to oppose the celts and slavs, therefore breeding or physical difference in appearance as opposed to these must refer to aryans as being blond/blue eyed, or opoosite to a slav with impure dark hair or brown eyes??

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Myron
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#32

Post by Myron » 30 Mar 2008, 06:26

"Interpretation of the word 'race' as it applies to groups of persons is inconsistent, and the definition of this term depends on the motive of the person using it. The Oxford English Dictionary acknowledges the imprecision of delimiting race, and it lists five definitions that range from a group as small as a family to a group as large as a species.

Most anthropologists have come to the conclusion that 'race' is not a useful term:

The term race, as applied to human types, is vague. It can have a biological significance only when a race represents a uniform, closely inbred group, in which all family lines are alike—as in pure breeds of domesticated animals. These conditions are never realized in human types and impossible in large populations. As a folk concept, race is employed to attribute not only physical characteristics but also psychological and moral ones to members of given categories, thus justifying or naturalizing a discriminatory system.

Race is therefore an unscientific social construct; that is, the concept of race is created from prevailing social perceptions and is without scientific foundation. The last definition given alludes to the destructive idea of race, which has fueled racist and eugenic movements with allegedly scientific claims of racial superiority and inferiority.

Anywhere from 30 to several hundred human races, defined using anthropologic criteria, have been proposed. Although this complex classification system is not commonly used in the media or in medicine, many persons have intuitively adopted the anthropologic definition of race; in the 1990 U.S. Census, nearly 300 'races' were volunteered. Indeed, this broader interpretation of race conforms more to the definition of an ethnic group, which is a group 'of people within a cultural system who desire or are given special status based on traits such as religion, culture, language, or appearance'."

Ritchie Witzig, "The Medicalization of Race: Scientific Legitimization of a Flawed Social Construct",
Annals of Internal Medicine (Vol. 125, 1996).
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/125/8/675


bobbyhill
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#33

Post by bobbyhill » 12 May 2008, 09:43

Reich Ruin wrote:What really makes me scratch my head is the fact that there are Neo-Nazi groups today in Slavic countries like Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia etc. :? Slavs where usually considered sub-human by Nazi ideologues right? Not to mention the fact that the German forces invading the east persecuted citizens just for their Slavic ancestry. Where there any analogous groups to the Nazi party before and during the Second World War?

I also seem to remember that children, even those who belonged to Slavic and Asiatic ethnic families, where saved from extermination by Nazi scientists because they had "Germanic" features. Then these children where adopted back in the Reich to new families. :|
I know, i was thinking about the same thing.Don't those neo-nazis in Russia and E. Europe today know that they ARE the very subhumans regarded by Nazis?

IMO those young neo-nazis are probably mostly undereducated/economically disenfranchised to realize this.

svigoo
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#34

Post by svigoo » 22 May 2008, 11:49

First of all during world war Slovakia was axis force
Estonia had several SS batallions,same for Ukraine,Russia had around half million RLA (general Vlasov) soldiers on the side of nazis,Russian cossacks had several divisions fighting Stalin (Hitler called them Giths,not russians,what a morron :)).One of the best german aces back than was Ukrainian..there were plenty of polish generals etc etc
In practice, nazi soldiers and officers were opposing the official party line of germanic supremacy,due to the lack of obvious differences and behaviour in appearance between germans and (west and northern) slavs.It is a well known thing,remove the "cultural" expression,and you cant see difference between a russian and a german.3 million of volksdeutche (german economical emigrants of 19 century) in russia are good example of it,you can say the difference only by surname (althugh they have been hardly marrying outside of the community)

Secondly the idieology of nazism and racism itself has hardly much to do with the political agenda of Hitler.any intelligent neo nazi in E Europe or anywhere in Europe) perfectly understands that and a lot of disambiguation of nazis attitude towards Slavonic people during 2 ww.In fact,ideological leaders (call them scholars) of nazi party were quite reluctant in assuming that Slavs are subhumans,due to the lack of obvious basis under such statement.

In fact,racial (well aryan) ideology nowadays assumes sometimes that germans are more subhumans than slavs (I dont mean southern slavs,who are not really slavs,but illirics) due to closer relationships between Sanscrit and Slavonic languages than between Sanscrit and germanic languages and results of modern genealogy.
Also not to forget that by 1942-43 Hitler officially denounces policy of racial supremacy (due to the challenging political and military map),but made stress on "spiritual unity of german nation"

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Qvist
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#35

Post by Qvist » 22 May 2008, 15:50

Good heavens man, where have you picked up this nonsense? If you think hitler shelved racial ideology in the middle of the war or that most "intelligent" nazis didn't actually believe in it, you're pulling the wool so far down over your eyes it's keeping your toes warm. Read a book or two, for crying out loud.

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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#36

Post by Hallstatt » 11 Jun 2008, 21:18

... Also not to forget that by 1942-43 Hitler officially denounces policy of racial supremacy ... ????

I remind you that in the middle of the war, when Rosenberg proposed a cultural autonomy for the Ukrainians, while Hitler spoke about the future slavic workforce ( as the polish slaves who worked in Germany ) which will be very useful for the great germanic Reich, he said that the next man who will speak to him of educating the Ukrainians or of ukrainian culture will be sent to a concentration camp. Moreover, the GeneralPlan Ost planned to preserve only 14 millions of Slavs on the counted 45 millions. They only stood for workforce ( and some germanizations for those of nordic race and mentally pro-Germans).

at6
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#37

Post by at6 » 11 Jun 2008, 23:09

if we can get back to the original query, please: where and when, if ever, did the Party state the Aryan was blue eyed and blond haired?

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mty
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#38

Post by mty » 12 Jun 2008, 11:53

As far as I know, that was never stated that way in any official announcement or speech. The only "official" definition of Aryan came along with the Nuremberg race laws. Thus a German who was not by judicial definition a Jew or mischlinge was considered Aryan. Of course there was the Hans F.K. Günther's Nordicism which was adopted by the early SS (Himmler and Darré were its most visible advocates) and various theories depicting Germans as founders of all civilizations but none of them became sort of an official party line or a declaration.

Blue eyes, fair hair, tall and symmetric appearance and bone structure were seen (also in non-NS scientific circles of the era) as qualities of the Nordic race and the Nordic race then became the ultimate ideal of the Aryan concept. Nordicist authors and artists as well as certain NSDAP propagandists usually favoured nordic-looking individuals in their works and thus over time it became the visual symbol of an Aryan. Still, it was never directly equated as such. The concept of Aryanism indeed was scalable whenever there was need for that such as the case of "honorary Aryans" :).

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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#39

Post by Hallstatt » 12 Jun 2008, 13:46

Okay, sorry, let us return to the subject.
Your question is: where and when, if ever, did the Party state the Aryan was blue eyed and blond haired?
if we can get back to the original query, please: where and when, if ever, did the Party state the Aryan was blue eyed and blond haired?

Never ! In the rhetoric of the NSDAP, Aryan = not Jewish. Moreover, Hitler never used the expression Aryan race. He said the Aryan peoples or the Aryans.
How to say to answer your question ?
Since the 1880s, the majority of the anthropologists thought that the Aryans were tall blond blue eyed dolichocephalic men. For example, in Genealogy of Morals ( 1887 ), Nietzsche spoke about blond Aryans. The blond blue eyed dolichocephalic aryan was popularized in the 1880s by Karl Penka and Ludwig Wilser, two austrian anthropologists. Gobineau in 1855 already thought that the Aryans were blond with blue eyes, but he didn't insist. The physical appearance did not interest him. Later ( end of 1890s ), Vacher Lapouge ( French ) and Otto Ammon ( German ) popularized the idea of the superiority of the blond blue eyed dolichocephalic man. But already, anthropologists began to reject the expression Aryan race. Lapouge used the expression homo europaeus. The expression Aryan race was abandoned little by little. In 1899, Deniker introduced the expression nordic race. Nordic race corresponded in the former rejected expression Aryan race. For example, HFK Günther, the nazi anthropologist used the expression nordic race and not aryan race. And Hitler ?
In Mein Kampf, nothing ! He just wrote that the most precious blood is the blood of the German from the North and that the nordic blood is a creative blood of culture. Nowhere in Mein Kampf, the words blond and Aryan are associated.
In a speech in 1920, he said that the Aryans went down from the North. But, no reference to blondism. Hitler just used the expression nordic blood and with parsimony ! Hitler was more german race or germanic race than nordic race. To be a german was the most important for him. The Germans were a Herrenvolk ( the master race ).
in 1934, there was a fight between supporters of the nordic race and the supporters of the german race. Several persons complained about posters representing only blond Germans.Some brown-haired Germans felt discredited. Hitler was called in rescue. He found a compromise : the nordic blood is what unites the German people, but especially it was necessary to be proud to be a German because the Germans are a race of heros.
Did Hitler believe in the blond blue eyed Aryan theory ?
Yes ! For him :
1) The Aryans came from the North ( so they were necessarily blond )
2) When he spoke about the Mufti of Jerusalem, he said, because of his blond hair and blue eyes, that he had to have Aryan ancestors.
3) Otherwise, in his dialectic, he used more Teutons than Aryans. For him, The Kurds and Berbers because of their blond hair and blue eyes are ancient Teutons. The Greeks are too ancient Teutons for him.
So, for him, The Aryans came from the North and they were Pre-Teutons. the Teutons were the last representatives ( the purest ) of the Aryans.

To conclude : For the law, Aryans = not Jewish and in the head of the Germans, the Aryans were blond men come from the great North ( Scandinavia or north pole ).

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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#40

Post by bobbyhill » 12 Jun 2008, 15:49

The "ideal" Aryan has high cheek bones, narrow faces, blue eyes and blond hair. But it doesn't mean a brown haird Germanic person isn't Aryan.

However, a very important thing that some people misunderstand today is that they believe Aryan means white. This is not what the Nazis meant. The Aryan back then meant Germanic, which includes Germans, Dutch, English and Scandinavians. Slavic people, although considered white today, was not considered as Aryan, though some of they have blonde hair and blue eyes.

White and Aryan are two different things. In plain Enlish, Aryan is first class white, on the top of the racial totem pole.

In short, hair and eye color were not the determining factors of Aryan. Aryans were defined as Germanic race (Germans, English, Dutch, Scandinavians).

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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#41

Post by Hallstatt » 12 Jun 2008, 20:05

No. The Nazis did not argue in these terms. Scandinavians, Germanic peoples, English = nordic blood for the Nazis.
Nordic blood, germanic blood were more used than expressions with the word Aryan.

'...In short, hair and eye color were not the determining factors of Aryan".

It is more complicated than it !
For example, Hitler thought that Berbers and Kurds have a germanic origin because they are blond haired with blue eyes.
And what about the planned germanizations ?????
Some Nazis decided that it would be possible to germanize about 50 per cent of the Czechs, 35 per cent of the Ukrainians and 25 per cent of the Byelorussians without forgetting the baltic peoples. How they justified it ? Hitler said that germanization had to be made by the blood. How could he accept germanization of men of blood which is not germanic ? It is simple ! The principle : a man of nordic race of ukrainian nationality for example, had inevitably teutonic ancestors. Thus, it was about a recovery of the nordic ( germanic ) blood. Himmler had made kidnap polish children of nordic race.

Himmler : " there are a great number of children in Polish orphanages and living with adopted parents who, judging by their racial appearance, should be regarded as descended from Nordic parents."

Dr. Erich Wetzel : " The Poles, an offshoot of the Western Slav group of nations, owe the birth of their nation and state to Germanic tribes. Hundreds, even thousands of years before the arrival of the Slav tribes, the major portion of the area of the Polish state was inhabited by Germans and other nations of the Nordic race."


" ...White and Aryan are two different things. In plain Enlish, Aryan is first class white, on the top of the racial totem pole."

Right. In 1850, german linguists as Schlegel and Lassen asserted that Aryans = Only : Germanic peoples + Ancient Greeks + Aryans of India + Iranian Peoples. Celts, Slavs, Latins, Balts, ... were not considered as Aryans. Moreover, in the " Inégalités des races humaines " written by Gobineau in 1855, The Aryans are only those quoted above. As regards the Slavs, the specialists said that they received very few aryan blood and that the Slavs interbred with Mongols and Tartars.
One said " the mongolized Slavs".

Once again, Himmler ( especially him who used non-stop the expression nordic blood ), Hitler etc ...., argued in terms of germanic -nordic blood. Hitler used the expression of " Aryan peoples" only to oppose Europe to asiatic Russia.

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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#42

Post by warriorx » 13 Jun 2008, 17:01

bobbyhill wrote:The "ideal" Aryan has high cheek bones, narrow faces, blue eyes and blond hair. But it doesn't mean a brown haird Germanic person isn't Aryan.

However, a very important thing that some people misunderstand today is that they believe Aryan means white. This is not what the Nazis meant. The Aryan back then meant Germanic, which includes Germans, Dutch, English and Scandinavians. Slavic people, although considered white today, was not considered as Aryan, though some of they have blonde hair and blue eyes.

White and Aryan are two different things. In plain Enlish, Aryan is first class white, on the top of the racial totem pole.

In short, hair and eye color were not the determining factors of Aryan. Aryans were defined as Germanic race (Germans, English, Dutch, Scandinavians).
i think it is not correct we think aryan means blue eyes and blond hairs... and i think today all should accept that slavs are aryan... .
and in iran history ... aryans were mostly black hairs... for example iran (persia) king of kings most were black hair like dariux (daryush) the great say himself as aryan but he was black hair...
or sassanied nobles were aryans but they havle most black hair with bronze skin... .

bobbyhill
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#43

Post by bobbyhill » 13 Jun 2008, 19:34

Aryans are white, but not all whites are Aryans, example Slavs, at least to the Nazis.

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Ranke
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#44

Post by Ranke » 13 Jun 2008, 23:26

There is some bizarre stuff being bandied about here.
The concept "aryan" has no currency today apart from the indo-iranian context.
Race is a social construct. Humans aren't divided genetically into different races. Race is not a valid biological taxonomic category.
Posters seem to be trying to rationalize something that is fundamentally irrational. Nazi ideas about race were nonsense.

Svigoo wrote:
Secondly the idieology of nazism and racism itself has hardly much to do with the political agenda of Hitler
.

No, not a thing.
any intelligent neo nazi in E Europe or anywhere in Europe
Such a creature certainly doesn't exist.
In fact,racial (well aryan) ideology nowadays assumes sometimes that germans are more subhumans than slavs
I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what this "racial (well aryan)" ideology of today is.

Also not to forget that by 1942-43 Hitler officially denounces policy of racial supremacy (due to the challenging political and military map),but made stress on "spiritual unity of german nation"
This one wins the prize, though. I must have missed the announcement.
On a serious note, though, you really need to be careful how you express yourself as one might think you are endorsing the ideas you are trying to explain ...

ThomasG
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Re: aryan = blond hair , blue eyes, etc

#45

Post by ThomasG » 14 Jun 2008, 16:31

bobbyhill wrote:Aryans are white, but not all whites are Aryans, example Slavs, at least to the Nazis.
The Slavs are "Aryans" (Indo-Europeans). The Nazis knew that, of course.

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