Berghof Obersalzberg

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Post Reply
User avatar
Johnnyrocket
Member
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Jul 2005, 20:14
Location: New York/Florida/Cleveland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3811

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Sep 2014, 00:05

From these blue prints the turn around could have easily been done from inside the Garage. These plans seem to visually represent a much larger area that what one would have concluded from a quick visual observation.
AH (1st) Basement Garage.jpg
Johnny R.
• Natural Born American Citizen
• American Patriot
• U.S. Army Vet.1969-'71—Spc.5 Field Artillery
—Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!

User avatar
Steve Hoog
In memoriam
Posts: 468
Joined: 01 Feb 2008, 19:14
Location: Tulsa OK
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3812

Post by Steve Hoog » 16 Sep 2014, 00:22

Johnny R I would agree with your garage idea and have actually thought of that myself.

But you must consider a select amount of personal vehicles must have been housed in there at all times.
Loyalty is My Honor


User avatar
Johnnyrocket
Member
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Jul 2005, 20:14
Location: New York/Florida/Cleveland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3813

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Sep 2014, 00:23

I think Steve H. got it right...images from various sources show plenty of room to turn around in.
The attachment Garage 1.jpg is no longer available
Attachments
Berghof wall.jpg
Berghof wall.jpg (177.15 KiB) Viewed 2251 times
Garage3.jpg
Garage3.jpg (159.33 KiB) Viewed 2251 times
Garage 1.jpg
Garage 1.jpg (143 KiB) Viewed 2251 times
• Natural Born American Citizen
• American Patriot
• U.S. Army Vet.1969-'71—Spc.5 Field Artillery
—Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!

User avatar
Johnnyrocket
Member
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Jul 2005, 20:14
Location: New York/Florida/Cleveland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3814

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Sep 2014, 01:04

I'm sure if the war had turned out differently there would have been plans for a future (drive way) turn-around of some kind.

Johnny R.
• Natural Born American Citizen
• American Patriot
• U.S. Army Vet.1969-'71—Spc.5 Field Artillery
—Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!

User avatar
Steve Hoog
In memoriam
Posts: 468
Joined: 01 Feb 2008, 19:14
Location: Tulsa OK
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3815

Post by Steve Hoog » 16 Sep 2014, 05:39

In reading Misch's book in the last days and fresh on my mind; there was no mention of anything concerning cars at the Berghof, much less how they turned about. But you know good and well he would have been there to see how and what, simple little details like this no one must have thought anyone would have cared when they were writing their books. I admit these type details must seem mundane to the over all seriousness of what they dealt with and wrote about, but I for one am intrigued by this type little stuff as well as the more important topics.

However; Misch did mention Hitler's fondness of his ragtop VW bug while running about the mountain and if I was a betting man, I would place money on those bugs being kept in the garage.
Loyalty is My Honor

User avatar
Steve Hoog
In memoriam
Posts: 468
Joined: 01 Feb 2008, 19:14
Location: Tulsa OK
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3816

Post by Steve Hoog » 16 Sep 2014, 06:14

Actually that there were two of the black bug ragtops, a second one that followed with guards. There must have been a motor pool near by.
Loyalty is My Honor

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: 16 Mar 2002, 15:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3817

Post by Max » 16 Sep 2014, 07:11

This pic shows that turns were possible in front of the garage.
Granted it's not Grosser,but I still contend that they could and did do it.
There are quite a few pics of the back of the garage showing windows only.
That path beside the garage does appear in the pic posted by Annelie to be a bit narrow I agree, but if was only 2 metres wide a Grosser could have managed it with 30cm to spare on the wall side.
The next best guess is the interior of the garage. It would be an easy matter to bring any vehicles out on busy days and park them around as is seen in many pics, even down on the main road.
Short of an eyewitness account or movie footage,I think that, on the balance of probabilities, we have solved one of the great riddles of WWII. :wink: :D
The pic can be found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKaq0cmdP_s ]
Cheers
Max
Attachments
berghof car turning.JPG
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: 16 Mar 2002, 15:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3818

Post by Max » 16 Sep 2014, 08:12

BTW
I calculate the pathway beside the garage as almost 3 metres. Plenty of room for a Grosser
The width of the garage I calculate as about 9 metres
The width of the drive at the place indicated by the cars turning is about 12 metres.
If they could turn inside the garage it would have been a lot easier on the drive ,downhill from the steps.
Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1886719
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
tunix0
Member
Posts: 121
Joined: 21 Aug 2013, 08:44
Location: Germany - Münster
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3819

Post by tunix0 » 16 Sep 2014, 08:43

Hi,

I think it came down to which car was driven. As a driver, I would always choose the simple version. Turning big cars on the road and small cars directly in front of the house. Place to turn was there. But only for small cars with a small turning circle. It was perhaps possible to turn large cars there, but it was more complicated than on the road.

Here is yet another comparison picture:
Image

Bye
Christian
---
www.vergessener-beton.de - Gegen das Vergessen!

User avatar
Johnnyrocket
Member
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Jul 2005, 20:14
Location: New York/Florida/Cleveland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3820

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Sep 2014, 16:16

Max wrote:BTW
I calculate the pathway beside the garage as almost 3 metres. Plenty of room for a Grosser
The width of the garage I calculate as about 9 metres
The width of the drive at the place indicated by the cars turning is about 12 metres.
If they could turn inside the garage it would have been a lot easier on the drive ,downhill from the steps.
Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1886719
I love this schematic, good work Max.
• Natural Born American Citizen
• American Patriot
• U.S. Army Vet.1969-'71—Spc.5 Field Artillery
—Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!

User avatar
Annelie
Member
Posts: 5053
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 03:45
Location: North America

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3821

Post by Annelie » 16 Sep 2014, 16:19

Makes a lot of sense Max.

I think the angle of the photos of the driveway is what makes this
seem impossible. Alles gut!

User avatar
Johnnyrocket
Member
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Jul 2005, 20:14
Location: New York/Florida/Cleveland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3822

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Sep 2014, 16:25

I would venture to say that probably 80% of Berghof everyday activity was done at the service entrance (far left side of the building, facing it) with the 2nd (service) driveway. Of course they would have had to back out of this driveway too.

The main driveway was probably used for dignitaries and military great room meetings only.

I wonder if there was ever a protocol regulation guide produced for the Berghof that survived the war. This reg. would cover the everyday administration of the Berghof?

Johnny R.
• Natural Born American Citizen
• American Patriot
• U.S. Army Vet.1969-'71—Spc.5 Field Artillery
—Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!

User avatar
Geoff Walden
Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: 29 Mar 2002, 15:50
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon Line
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3823

Post by Geoff Walden » 16 Sep 2014, 23:43

Hi all,

That path in front of the garage was a walking path, much too narrow for any vehicles other than bicycles. Except for this path, the garage sat right at the edge of the steep slope in front of the house. As stated by others, there was no back door in the garage, just a window (my point of ingress in 1981).

The area on the other side of the garage was also a sloped area, covered with rocks (it was a "rock garden" of sorts). There was a stone staircase running from the level of the top of the garage (the terrace level), down the side of the garage wall, to the bottom level where this path was. So all of the area beyond was on a slope - no way to drive or turn vehicles back there.

Geoff

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2632
Joined: 16 Mar 2002, 15:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3824

Post by Max » 17 Sep 2014, 05:04

berghof garage.JPG
berghof garage.JPG (30.24 KiB) Viewed 2097 times


https://plus.google.com/photos/10978183 ... 0383122498?
berghof garage 2.JPG
https://plus.google.com/photos/10978183 ... 4590960368
Image

Image
Compare the plans from Harry von Gebhardt's collection and the one posted by Jonny R and you see they are different.
The dimensions of the interior of the garage are obviously different 9 and 10.6 metres wide likewise the width of the pathway beside the garage. It shows as about 2 and 3 metres wide.
Geoff - I take it you saw the remains of the rock garden that is shown on the plans. Also could the pathway have collapsed in the 35 years previous to your first visit, thus making it seem much narrower?
Cheers
Max
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Steve Hoog
In memoriam
Posts: 468
Joined: 01 Feb 2008, 19:14
Location: Tulsa OK
Contact:

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#3825

Post by Steve Hoog » 17 Sep 2014, 06:43

Max

A bit of either the path or garage floor is still there, I am guessing the path.
Loyalty is My Honor

Post Reply

Return to “Propaganda, Culture & Architecture”