Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

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Lovre
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Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Lovre » 01 Oct 2009 02:37

http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/2916466 ... from-woman
Last updated 10:00 30/09/2009

A piece of skull with a bullet hole through it that Russian officials claimed belonged to Adolf Hitler actually came from a woman, scientists at the University of Connecticut concluded.

The cranium fragment is part of a collection of Hitler artifacts preserved by Soviet intelligence in the months after Hitler and Eva Braun reportedly committed suicide in a Berlin bunker in April 1945.

The collection, now housed in the Russian State Archive in Moscow, also includes bloodstained pieces of the sofa where Hitler reportedly shot himself after taking a cyanide pill. The artifacts were put on public display in 2000.

Connecticut archaeologist Nick Bellantoni was asked to examine the skull and blood samples for a History Channel documentary on Hitler's death that aired this month.

Bellantoni said his initial forensic exam of the skull fragment showed it didn't match what he knew of Hitler's biology.

"The bone was very small and thin, and normally male bones are much more robust in our species," Bellantoni said Tuesday. "I thought it probably came from a woman or a younger man."

Bellantoni then took several pinhead-size pieces of the skull fragment and swabs of the blood stains back to the university for analysis.

Linda Strausbaugh, a professor of molecular and cell biology, got help from two former students who work in the New York City medical examiner's office. The former students, Craig O'Connor and Heather Nelson, are experts in working with challenging DNA samples and were able to extract enough DNA from the bone pieces to do a forensic study, Strausbaugh said.

She said they determined that the DNA came from a 20- to 40-year-old woman. The skull fragment could have come from Braun, but to know that, the lab would need samples of her DNA, she said. Also, the DNA samples were very degraded, making identification unlikely, Strausbaugh said.

Witnesses never reported Braun being shot in the head, Bellantoni said, and she is thought to have died of cyanide poisoning.

"This person, with a bullet hole coming out the back of the head, would have been shot in the face, in the mouth or underneath the chin," he said. "It would have been hard for them to miss that."

DNA from the bloodstain swabs showed at least some of it came from a man, Strausbaugh said.

"The DNA is relatively degraded and we don't have a full range of markers that we'd like to have," she said.

Russian officials have said Hitler and Braun's bodies were removed from a shell crater outside the bunker shortly after he died.

An autopsy allegedly showed Hitler's body was missing part of his cranium. A Soviet team went back to the crater in 1946 and allegedly found the piece of cranium that the UConn scientists examined.

Russian officials have said the rest of Hitler was buried beneath a Soviet army parade ground in the former East German city of Magdeburg. They said his remains were exhumed in 1970 and incinerated, and the ashes were flushed into the city's sewage system.

Both Strausbaugh and Bellantoni said there is nothing in their findings that significantly challenges the conclusion that Hitler died in the bunker.

"My gut feeling is he did commit suicide there, and maybe the blood sample we found is his," Bellantoni said.

"What this does is it raises a question: If this is not him who is it?" he later added. "And, two, what really happened there?"

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Adam Carr
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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Adam Carr » 01 Oct 2009 05:13

"What this does is it raises a question: If this is not him who is it?" he later added. "And, two, what really happened there?"


It doesn't raise any such questions. If the skull fragment is not from Hitler or Eva Braun, then it's from someone else. There was no shortage of corpses in Berlin in May 1945. And we know what happened to Hitler from many eyewitness accounts. Hitler shot himself, Eva Braun took poison. Their bodies were incinerated in a shall crater. End of story. The Russians knew perfectly well what happened, but they kept up a black propaganda campaign during the Cold War to suggest that the western powers were hiding Hitler somewhere. Various fools like Hugh Thomas were taken in by this. The full story from the Russian archives, with all their witness interrogations, is in Vinogradov et al, "Hitler's Death."

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Ernie Primeau » 01 Oct 2009 12:55

Adam Carr wrote: And we know what happened to Hitler from many eyewitness accounts.


Doesn't prove they were telling the truth, though. :idea:

Not that I'm saying they weren't - just that we don't know for sure.

Hitler could have ordered one of them to shoot him, like Goebbels did. Then, to make his death appear more 'heroic', they could have made up the story about him shooting himself.

The surviving Nazis were fanatical and not the most trustworthy of people, were they?

For example, Rochus Misch has contradicted himself about hearing the shot. At one time he said he heard it, other times that he didn't.

Here's the History Channel programme about the DNA discoveries of the skull.


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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Adam Carr » 01 Oct 2009 13:47

Misch has become a minor celebrity by virtue of being the last living survivor of the Bunker, but in fact he was a very minor figure. The Vinogradov book exhaustive details of the discovery by SMERSH of the corpses, of their forensic examination, of the use of dental evidence to identify Hitler, and of the interrogations by the Soviets of various eye-witnesses including Gunsche and Rattenhuber who were in the bunker when Hitler killed himself. The book also gives Serov's letter to Beria, 31 May 1945, which states flatly that the burned corpses found in the Chancelley garden were Hitler and Braun, based on dental evidence. So the Soviets knew all along that Hitler was definitely dead, but it suited their political purposes in the 1950s to pretend that they didn't know. The striking thing is how these documents from the Soviet archives confirm that Trevor-Roper's 1947 book was correct in almost every detail.

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby phylo_roadking » 01 Oct 2009 16:42

..of the use of dental evidence to identify Hitler, ... The book also gives Serov's letter to Beria, 31 May 1945, which states flatly that the burned corpses found in the Chancelley garden were Hitler and Braun, based on dental evidence.


Unfortunately - it's not THAT easy...
:wink:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=158417#p1380046

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Ernie Primeau » 01 Oct 2009 17:04

Adam Carr wrote:Misch has become a minor celebrity by virtue of being the last living survivor of the Bunker, but in fact he was a very minor figure.


And his testimony has proven to be unreliable.

The Vinogradov book exhaustive details of the discovery by SMERSH of the corpses, of their forensic examination, of the use of dental evidence to identify Hitler,


But the skull they said was Hitler's has proven not to be. Neither is it Eva's.

How reliable, therefore, are the Russian's statements regarding this? Obviously, and demonstrably, their pronouncements regarding the skull are completely false. Why, therefore, do you believe anything else they say?

The book also gives Serov's letter to Beria, 31 May 1945, which states flatly that the burned corpses found in the Chancelley garden were Hitler and Braun, based on dental evidence.


You are merely relying on what the Soviet's said - not provable fact.

The soviet's stated that the skull was Hitler's and the last remnants of the corpses they said were Hitler's and Brown's.

However, DNA evidence proves the skull was not Hitler's or Brown's!

If the skull didn't belong to Hitler or Brown how could the corpses?

They couldn't!

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Adam Carr » 02 Oct 2009 01:22

You say "their pronouncements regarding the skull are completely false," but the Soviets made no pronouncements about it at the time, and all Vinogradov says is that it was found in the archives.

You say "The Soviets stated that the skull was Hitler's." When did they state this?

I know nothing about the provenance of the skull fragment, and I don't think anyone else does either. All Vinogradov says is that it was "found in the Soviet archives." There's no reference to it in the contemporary documents he reproduces. It could have come from anywhere. There were many suicides in and around the bunker, and such a relic would have been easy to find.

Of course the Soviets lied about many things, but these are internal documents. Stalin and Beria wanted to know the truth about Hitler's fate, and they sent the SMERSH team to find the truth while the evidence was fresh. They apprehended Echtman and Heusemann, two assistants to Hitler's dentist, and they were able to identify Hitler and Braun by their dental work.

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby phylo_roadking » 02 Oct 2009 01:26

They apprehended Echtman and Heusemann, two assistants to Hitler's dentist, and they were able to identify Hitler and Braun by their dental work.


Probably better to say "they made an identification of the jaw fragments as Hitler's and Braun's" :wink: See the link above.

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Ernie Primeau » 02 Oct 2009 19:10

Adam Carr wrote:You say "their pronouncements regarding the skull are completely false," but the Soviets made no pronouncements about it at the time.


Not publically. But in 1993 Russia did:
MOSCOW -- What officials claim is a fragment of Adolf Hitler's skull went on display Wednesday, along with documents revealing what happened to the dictator's remains after they were seized by Soviet troops in 1945.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/death/HitlerSkull.html


You say "The Soviets stated that the skull was Hitler's." When did they state this?


Image
Secret communications between Soviet counterintelligence units in Germany and the government in Moscow tell of repeated burials and exhumations of the remains, and of their final destruction by fire in 1970.

According to the documents, which also went on display Wednesday, the remains had been kept by the counterintelligence unit of the Soviet 3rd Army, part of an intelligence organization called SMERSH...

The skull fragment was found separately in 1946, when the Soviet secret police opened a second investigation, prompted by rumors that Hitler had survived. They again dug up the hole outside Hitler's bunker, Mironenko said. The fragment they found was sent to Moscow.

Russia announced it had the skull fragment in 1993, and some Western experts argued it wasn't Hitler's. But Mironenko insisted his service had "no doubts that it is authentic."

"It is not just some bone we found in the street, but a fragment of a skull that was found in a hole where Hitler's body had been buried," Mironenko said in an interview.

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby drmessimer » 04 Oct 2009 00:21

According to Lev Bezymenski, The Death of Aldof Hitler, p. 62, dealing with the autopsy of the corpse identified as Adolf Hitler, part of the cranium was missing but "at a somewhat later date occipital parts of a cranium were found," which were believed to be from Hitler's corpse. Apparently a special team had been sent back to the grave site to locate the missing skull parts. Apparently, the chunk of bone they found wasn't from Hitler's body, but no one knew that at the time. But the bone was found in the area where Hitler's body was found, it had a hole in it, and that must have satisfied the Russians that it was genuine. But at that point it didn't matter whether or not the searchers had found the right piece of bone or not, since identification had already been made on the basis of dental records (pp. 62-66). The only think that the skull bone might establish was whether or not Hitler shot himself, or was shot by someone else, when he took his cyanide. Since the skull bone is, reportedly, not his, that question can't be answered. But the fact that the skull part was later proved to have come from another person, a female, does not refute the dental identification made in 1945. drmessimer

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby phylo_roadking » 04 Oct 2009 00:34

But the fact that the skull part was later proved to have come from another person, a female, does not refute the dental identification made in 1945


Quite correct. The fact that THAT identification is highly questionable is an entirely separate issue.

However -

According to Lev Bezymenski, The Death of Aldof Hitler, p. 62, dealing with the autopsy of the corpse identified as Adolf Hitler, part of the cranium was missing but "at a somewhat later date occipital parts of a cranium were found," which were believed to be from Hitler's corpse. Apparently a special team had been sent back to the grave site to locate the missing skull parts. Apparently, the chunk of bone they found wasn't from Hitler's body, but no one knew that at the time. But the bone was found in the area where Hitler's body was found, it had a hole in it, and that must have satisfied the Russians that it was genuine.


We don't KNOW that the piece of cranial bone recovered later WAS from a different location. Your judgement there is predicated on -

1/ them NOT finding exactly the same cremation/burial site...and the Russian records do NOT confirm that, and

2/ that the ORIGINAL identification was correct.

If - as seems very possible - the initial dental identification was incorrect...then whether or not they returned to the same location is immaterial - they'd STILL have recovered a part of the WRONG body.

You see the problem? :wink: Everything depends on how far back the misidentification was made.

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby Andy H » 04 Oct 2009 01:27

If memory serves, the collection of bones were moved, stored and buried in many places over many years.

Its not beyond the wit of man that on occasion that curiosity got the better of those undertaking the above retrieval & movement, that somebody would have a look at the actual remains, and maybe just toss the bones back willy nilly. Nobody back then was worried about DNA profilling etc.

No doubt some crazed conspiracy Nazi freak will now believe the beloved fuhrer is still alive and well :lol:

Regards

Andy H

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby phylo_roadking » 04 Oct 2009 02:06

If memory serves, the collection of bones were moved, stored and buried in many places over many years


....AND separately, to add to the disruption in the "continuity of evidence". The jaw fragments and skull fragment departed early for Moscow, while the rest of the remains shuttled about East germany and Poland, spending some considerable number of years buried near Magdeburg.

No doubt some crazed conspiracy Nazi freak will now believe the beloved fuhrer is still alive and well


....and still uttering his world-influencing pronouncements, like - "Nurse, can you change my bag?" and "I dressed myself today!!!"

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby drmessimer » 04 Oct 2009 14:43

Am I correct that that the people who question the accuracy of the Russians identification of the corpse identified as Hitler on the basis of dental comparison also believe that he somehow got away? If that is the case, then they need to answer the question; where would he have gone? How did he remain undetected through the next thirty or so years of his life? The man was a megalomaniac whose very nature would have revealed him to the world. It was in the Russians’ skewed interest to leave the West guessing about what really became of Hitler. But why would they have deceived themselves? Disinformation is only useful if the provider of the disinformation knows the truth, and it appears from the record that the Russians did know the truth with regard to the forensic identification of Hitler’s corpse. drmessimer

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Re: Skull thought to be Hitler's is from woman

Postby phylo_roadking » 04 Oct 2009 16:43

Am I correct that that the people who question the accuracy of the Russians identification of the corpse identified as Hitler on the basis of dental comparison also believe that he somehow got away?


No - the great majority merely question the REPORTED circumstances of his demise in the bunker...given that there are so many contradicting versions and times. He could have escaped, he could have died somewhere else in the fighting inside Berlin, given the frequent diagnoses of Parkinson's Disease his health could have collapsed and he died a short time after the war....OR of course the staff at the Bunker could simply have hid his body far better! Or the Russians may simply have looked in the wrong shell hole outside the bunker in the first place!

Look at the Martin Bormann example - for years everyone assumed he'd escaped and lived out his life somewhere, now it's "generally" accepted that he died in the fighting during the attempted breakout.

It was in the Russians’ skewed interest to leave the West guessing about what really became of Hitler. But why would they have deceived themselves?


Who says they did??? The CONTINUED inquiries and revisiting of witnesses over many years at the very least indicates that their confidential position changed as more and more facts emerged. If they were deceived or deceived themselves in 1945, they obviously didn't let the matter rest! :wink:


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