Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

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mapugu
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Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#1

Post by mapugu » 25 Jan 2010, 20:36

This copy shows also four men were captured in Munich and arrested in Stadelheim - later killed at Berlin-Lichterfelde:
Liste Stadelheim 2.Hundertsch.LaPo300634.jpg
Liste Stadelheim 2.Hundertsch.LaPo300634.jpg (35.71 KiB) Viewed 3605 times
for better reading - patial transcript of copy of „Prisoner-List“ of 2nd Hundertschaft der Bayr. Landespolizei:
shedule 2nd Sq.BSP.JPG
shedule 2nd Sq.BSP.JPG (103.63 KiB) Viewed 3605 times
In respect of Georg von Detten, Fritz von Krausser, Konrad Schragmüller and Hans Joachim von Falkenhausen, which all four were killed at Berlin-Lichterfelde I am lookig for details about their transfer from Munich to Berlin.
And also about other high ranking SA-Leaders, which were not shooted and not listed above, like e.g. SA-Staf. Ferdinand Prinz von Isenburg and SA-Gruf. Karl Schreyer. Last two were like the others captured at Munich but then arrested at the Columbia-House in Berlin. Can anybody help with details about their transfer?
thanks
mapugu

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#2

Post by mty » 10 Feb 2010, 23:17

Unfortunately I cannot provide details regarding the transport of prisoners from Munich to Berlin - actually something I am also interested in, as it is not well covered in available literature about the purge.

Prinz von Isenburg (Höhne spells his name as "Ysenburg") was a personal adjutant of Ritter von Epp and he was present when Epp complained to Wagner about the arrests of the morning. Interestingly, Isenburg was also among the entourage which followed Hitler to Oberwiesenfeld airport upon his leaving from Munich. He must have been arrested after that and probably by Wagner. His arrest is nevertheless a curious case since he was aide-de-camp to one of the most powerful men (at least on paper) in Bavaria and I would like to learn more about circumstances of his arrest.


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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#3

Post by Georges JEROME » 14 Feb 2010, 19:48

well München - Berlin today with motorway is 592 km. Imagine in 1934 without motorway time for driving.
solution is plane.
I remember that in 1934 june SS troops were guarding Tempelhof airport.

and that a number of archives dealing with this event were destroyed :

i.e. LAH tagesbefehl 209 from june 30 to june 2 was missing.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#4

Post by mty » 15 Feb 2010, 14:34

The supposition of Georges can be supported by certain known pieces of evidence. There is a vivid description by Gisevius, how Karl Ernst was flown from Bremen and escorted to a vehicle which took him to Lichterfelde. It is entirely possible that air transport was widely used for transfer of prisoners between 30.6 and 2.7.

I already asked this is another thread but just as a suggestion: were the air traffic records / airport operations logs from days of Blood Purge also destroyed? What about earlier documents, regarding the arrangements to allocate state aircraft for SS/Gestapo use, there must have been something on paper about that too (timeframe for this could be late May to early June since other known SS arrangements took place at the same time).

Tempelhof airport was by then staffed and managed by DLV. Since they were not under jurisdiction of the Gestapo, there is a theoretical possibility that some of these might still lay somewhere rather unnoticed. In every case, it can be assumed that Göring as the de-facto head of German aviation did carry out a thorough cleaning of all compromising material.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#5

Post by mapugu » 15 Feb 2010, 20:27

If it is true that v. Detten, v. Krausser, v. Falkenhausen and also Schragmüller were even in the morning of 1st July at their cells in Stadelheim prison (until 07:30 a.m. - according remarks on schedule) would it be possible, that this men go from Munich to Berlin:
a) by car - then the question who was driver ore were the drivers? I found never in past a comment in this way.
b) by train - then the question who was security officer or escort? I found never in past a comment in this way.
c) by airplane - (like Karl Ernst from Bremen) then the question who was the pilot and what was the airliner?
About using of airplanes to capture the "renegades" and transfer them between 30.6 and 2.7. from diverse towns of the Reich to Berlin reporting many sources and so you Georges and "mty" are showing the right way. Your point of view is also my assumption. NSDAP, Reichswehr, Lufthansa and DLV held closely relationships in 1934. Just in 1934 increased the "Ju 52/3m-fleet" of the Lufthansa about 28 airplanes to whole 41 machines. Since February 1933 Lufthansa established a Government Flight Service (Regierungsflugdienst). Director of Deutsche Lufthansa AG was in those days Erhard Milch, the later Generalfeldmarschall - a man with best relationship to Hitler and Göring. I don´t think that in the days of the blood purge the DLV or the Reichswehr owned airplanes like the Ju 52 and in this view it could be, that in archives of the Lufthansa in respect of their Government Flight Service in June/July 1934 can find details about flight activities.

Three men were executed in the night from 2nd to 3rd July at areal of the SS-Wachbataillon Berlin in Lichterfelde (v. Falkenhausen 3rd July 02:00 a.m./v. Detten 3rd July 02:30 a.m./v. Krausser 3rd July 03:00 a.m.)and it had been organized temporally (like a) also), because between their pick up in Stadelheim on (1st July 07:30) and their hour of death nearly forty hours. No one of them was a free man during the forty hours between seizure and execution - their must be some one testify for!

In respect of the leader of SA-Gruppe Mitte Konrad Schragmüller (according Höhne killed together with his staff leader SA-Oberführer Max Schulze on 1st July in Lichterfelde) is it another case. He was according different sources for a short time in freedom. The question is in respect of his way to the guns of Lichterfelde, where and why they picked him up again. Nevertheless results the next question out of this, because according other sources SA-Oberführer Max Schulze, (since February 1934 was he "stellvertretender Sonderbevollmächtigter des Obersten SA-Führers für die Provinz Sachsen" and additional "Sonderbevollmächtigter beim Regierungspräsidenten in Magdeburg" was killed om 1st July, 23:00 at the Lichtenburg concentration camp together with SA-Obersturmbannführer Kurt Mosert, leader of Standarte 72 (Torgau). Again contradictions only !

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#6

Post by Andreas Schulz » 16 Feb 2010, 12:53

mapugu wrote:
leader of SA-Gruppe Mitte Konrad Schragmüller (according Höhne killed together with his staff leader SA-Oberführer Max Schulze on 1st July in Lichterfelde)
Staff leader (Stabsführer) of the SA-Gruppe Mitte was Walther Nibbe 01.06.1933 - 31.05.1935. Max Schulze was leader of the SA-Standarte 26 (Magdeburg).

AnDie

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#7

Post by mapugu » 16 Feb 2010, 19:35

Andreas Schulz wrote: Staff leader (Stabsführer) of the SA-Gruppe Mitte was Walther Nibbe 01.06.1933 - 31.05.1935. Max Schulze was leader of the SA-Standarte 26 (Magdeburg).

AnDie
Hi Andreas,
thanks for your brilliant rectification - and excuse for my sloppy work!
Staff leader (Stabsführer) of the SA-Gruppe Mitte was:
14.10.1931 - 18.12.1931 SA-Standartenführer Georg von Detten (at Dresden)
18.12.1931 - 28.02.1932 SA-Oberführer Georg von Detten (at Dresden)
01.03.1932 - 15.09.1932 SA-Oberführer Wilhelm von Grolman (m.d.W.d.G.b.) (at Dessau-new SA-Gruppe Mitte)
15.09.1932 - 31.05.1933 SA-Oberführer Wilhelm von Grolman (at Dessau)
01.06.1933 - 30.06.1933 SA-Oberführer Walther Nibbe (at Dessau)
01.07.1933 - 31.05.1935 SA-Brigadeführer Walther Nibbe (at Dessau/Magdeburg)
(30.06.1934 im Rahmen des sog. „Röhm-Putsches“ verhaftet, jedoch wieder freigelassen)
01.06.1935 - 00.00.1945 ?
(Unfortunately I down´t know precise date of change official residence from Dessau to Magdeburg.)

Manfred

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#8

Post by Andreas Schulz » 16 Feb 2010, 22:35

I have these infos:

Stabsführer

14.10.1931 - 16.02.1932 SA-Standartenführer (ab 18.12.1931 SA-Of.) Georg von Detten
01.03.1932 - 13.04.1932 SA-Oberführer Wilhelm von Grolman
01.07.1932 - 15.09.1932 SA-Oberführer Wilhelm von Grolman (m.d.W.d.G.b.)
15.09.1932 - 31.05.1933 SA-Oberführer Wilhelm von Grolman
01.06.1933 - 31.05.1935 SA-Oberführer (ab 01.07.1933 SA-Brif.) Walther Nibbe
21.07.1934 - 17.08.1934 SA-Standartenführer Karl Ludwig Heldmann (vertrw.m.d.W.d.G.b.)
01.06.1935 - 19.04.1936 SA-Standartenführer (ab 09.11.1935 SA-Of.) Hans Lehmann (m.d.W.d.G.b.)
20.04.1936 - 30.06.1937 SA-Oberführer Hans Lehmann
01.07.1937 - 31.05.1938 SA-Brigadeführer Eberhard Kergel
01.06.1938 - 30.06.1938 SA-Brigadeführer Richard Schicke (m.d.W.d.G.b.)
01.07.1938 - 31.05.1943 SA-Brigadeführer Richard Schicke
00.00.1942 - SA-Brigadeführer Alfred Raabe (vertrw.m.d.k.W.d.G.b.)
01.06.1943 - 06.06.1944 SA-Brigadeführer Carl Ludwig Schleich

AnDie

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#9

Post by Zsasz » 12 Mar 2010, 15:49

I can add some data with regard to Hans Holtsch-Riederer:

He was born on June 1st 1904 in Munich and acted as the personal valet of Röhm. According to a list of people still under arrest two months after the Röhm Purge that the Gestapo sent to Göring's Secretary of State Pilli Körner HR was arrested on June 30th by the Bavarian Political Police in Bad Wiessee. In August he was still imprisoned in Stadelheim and marked as "not suitable for release". His profession is interestingly given as "waiter" - so Holtsch-Riederer might just as well be identical with the mysterious August Holt who according to Otto Strasser's 1943 book was shot in Munich on July 1st as a wine stewart of Röhm's favourite innkeeper Zehnter. Now he blatantly survived, but it is possible to assume that Holtsch-Rieder came into Röhm's service after working as waiter for Zehnter. The whole hullabaloo of the Purge days may have given rise to the rumour that Holtsch-Riederer was killed and his name may have gradually changed to Holt as the rumour was passed on in the fashion of Chinese whispes.

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Willy Klemm

#10

Post by Zsasz » 18 Mar 2010, 14:38

Hi folks,

in a related issue I was wondering whether ynone here happens to know more about Willi Klemm, another little known Purge Victim. I managed to salvage an internal list of all those killed during the Purge in the Federal Archive. With regard to Klemm it states:

"Klemm, Willi: SA-Brigadeführer; * 9.3.92 in Aaken a.E., Berlin [place of residence], Lichterfelde 1. Juli [place of death]"

On top of that I found a note of Goering's aide-de-camp Bodenschatz from December 3rd 1934 stating that a complaint of the widow Helma Klemm from Halle, Humboldstraße 7, pertaining to the death of Brigadeführer Willi Klemm on July 2nd [sic!] had been handed over to Himmler.

According to Gritschneder's book on the Purge victims Klemm was an adjutant to Heines. However, his alleged place of residence seems to contradict that. Moreover Kurt Gildisch, one of the executioners of the killings and arrests during the Purge, later on confessed to have taken someone whose name he remembered to have been an aide-de-camp to Karl Ernst - and whose name he gave as "Klein" - to Lichterfelde on behalf of Heydrich on July 1st. It may be noteworthy that the official death list does not give a precise place of residence, comprising a street and house number - as in most cases - but only a general information as to the city where he is supposed to have dwelled. This indicates a lack of information on him on the part of those who drew up the list - so Berlin as a regular place of residence is somewhat unvalidated.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#11

Post by Zsasz » 21 Mar 2010, 18:37

Another question:

According to the internal list of Blood Purge victims by the Gestapo that I found in the Federal Archives Heines' aide Kurt Engelhart was born on May 1st 1891 in a city named Brcostkow. Since there is not a single hit for that search term in Google I presume that it is a misspelling. Does anyone around here have an idea what the correct name of that place might be?

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

#12

Post by mapugu » 21 Mar 2010, 18:55

Zsasz wrote:Another question:

According to the internal list of Blood Purge victims by the Gestapo that I found in the Federal Archives Heines' aide Kurt Engelhart was born on May 1st 1891 in a city named Brcostkow. Since there is not a single hit for that search term in Google I presume that it is a misspelling. Does anyone around here have an idea what the correct name of that place might be?
Look under "Brzóstków" -
it´s one (63-210 Brzóstków, Powiat Jarociński, Großpolen, Polen)in the south-east of Poznan and
another (28-136 Brzostków, Powiat Buski, Heiligkreuz, Polen)in the north-east of Krakow. The first one may be birthplace of Kurt Engelhart with higher probability, because it was a part of Germany until 1920.

http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&tab=wl&q=Brostkow

Regards,
Manfred

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Re: Willi Klemm

#13

Post by alisa » 08 Apr 2010, 15:02

Apologies if I repeat myself...this is my 3rd attempt to post something on Willi Klemm (my internet connection is not reliable).

My grandfather, Johann Toeller, was Vizefeldwebel under Leutnant Klemm. In 1919/1920 Klemm's unit was part of the Eiserne Brigade which fought in the Baltic. Let me quote my grandfather:

" Im Januar 1920 wurden wir zur Demobilisierung ins Muensterlager verfrachtet. Noch in die Demobilisierungszeit fiel der Kapputsch. In diesem wurde ich zum 3.Male in der Nachkriegszeit und zwar am 16.Maerz 1920, zusammengeschossen. Ich musste fluechten, um mich der Verhaftung zu entziehen. Leutn. Klemm brachte mich auf Guetern in Vorder- und Hinterpommern unter. Hier lebte ich unter dem Namen Dittma und konnte mich auskurieren. ..

Ich wurde gerade noch so rechtzeitig gesund und verwendungsfaehig, dass ich bei Ausbruch des letzten Polenputsches im Mai 1921 im Selbstschutz Oberschlesien in der Komp.Klemm den Stosstrupp immer noch getarnt, als Offiz.Stellv.Dittma, uebernehmen konnte. Wir Klemmer hatten die Hauptlast der Freiw.Sturmabtl. Rossbach zu tragen. Wir hatten mehr Verluste an Verwundeten und Toten als alle anderen 12. Komp der Abt...

1922/23 gehoerte ich dann der Arbeitsgemeinschaft Klemm an. Wir organisierten Wehrsport und waren ueberall in nationalen Sinne taetig. Nach dem Attentat auf Rathenau wurden Leutnant Klemm und ich im Juli/August 1922 unter dem Verdacht der Teilnahme, einige Wochen ins Gefaengnis geworfen. Januar/Februar 1923 wurden wir abermals diesmal wegen Zellenbildung verhaftet und sassen mehrere Wochen in Untersuchungshaft...

Mitte 1923 loeste sich unsere Arbeitsgemeinschaft zwangslaeufig auf...Der NSDAP gehoerte ich bis November 1923, bis zur Aufloesung der Partei, unter dem Namen Dittma(r) an."

Klemm's unit also received money to transport his men to Muenich to support the Beer Hall Putsch in November 1923 but my grandfather says that unfortunately their group arrived too late (they were travelling from Gross Ellguth).

The above quotes come from a court transcript in June 1934 and my grandfather refers to Klemm as "Leutnant Klemm, jetzigen Brigadefuehrer der SA - Berlin" so I am sure it is the same Willi Klemm who was murdered in July 1934.

I was hoping that someone also had more information on Willi klemm or my grandfather, Johann Toeller (Dittma). Thanks for the info about Helma Klemm and her complaint.

Regards
Alisa

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#14

Post by Zsasz » 09 Apr 2010, 14:48

I may add a few more informations concerning Willi Klemm: According to his record in the NSDAP party members register he lived in Breslau, so he probably was the aide-de-camp of Edmund Heines, a logical constellation if one bears in mind that both, Klemm and Heines, had been members of the Rossbach Freikorps.

Furthermore I reread my copies of the testimonies that Kurt Gildisch gave to the Belrin district attorney's office in 1949: He says that he was sent on July 1st to the Tempelhof airfield to pick up an adjutant of Heines' whom he names Klein (since there was no Klein among the people shot on July 1st it has to be Klemm) and took him to the Gestapa, where he handed him over to one Potzält (i.e. Heydrich's adjutant Walter Potzelt) in Heydrich's ante-room. Potzelt then ordered him to take Klemm to the Kadettenanstalt Lichterfelde where he was executed. On the same day Gildisch picked up one Erwin Villain whom he remembered to have been wearing as bathing-suit when he arrested him (Villain's hobby was sayling, so Gildisch's claim seem credible). BTW Helma Klemm was Klemm's mother - to avoid any misapprehensions.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#15

Post by alisa » 12 Apr 2010, 21:53

To confirm Helma Klemm's address I found her listed at the address you mentioned in a 1936 "Hallesches Addressbuch" which I found on Ancestry.com. Have you perhaps come across the name "von Wimmersperg" in any of your reading...specifically a Nazi party member residing in Breslau?

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