Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Berlin

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bigjimparton
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#61

Post by bigjimparton » 25 Jun 2010, 23:25

Alisa
I too am interested in the name von Wimmersperg/berg. I live in a grand house in Silesia, Poland, formerly Prussia, that used to belong to the von Wimmersberg family. They lost the house in a game of cards in about 1858, but had owned it for over 100 years. A recent German visitor was descended from the von Wimmersberg's gardeners. He seems to know a fair amount about that family from the C18. Anyway, nothing to do with the Nazis, which this forum is about, but I am trying to piece together the history of the house I own here
Jim

alisa
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#62

Post by alisa » 28 Jun 2010, 18:39

Hi Jim
Thanks for all your internet posts which I browsed today...including photo's of your home on facebook. What an awesome project you and your family have undertaken. Its quite strange for me to view the pictures of the house and surrounds as I have always been interested in history and my family history. My grandmother's stories of Prussia and castles and family tragedies always made me curious about my father's side of the family. In those days the old Prussia was inaccessible to us except that once my father attended a physics conference and a delegate from Poland (I think) told him he was familiar with the name "von Wimmersperg." I used to pester my grandmother about her first husband and his family (Joachim von Wimmersperg) but never got very far. In 1991/2 I requested that she write to 2 ladies living in Berlin with the "von Wimmersperg" surname. A few weeks later a letter returned to her stating that they did not want any trouble and could not help her. It was all very peculiar.

I was under the impression until a few years ago that I was a "von Wimmersperg." Our family grew up using the first part of our official surname dropping the "Toeller" bit. (I am assuming you have read the previous posts.) If you return to page 2 there is a post by "Heimatschuss" who kindly posted weblinks about the adoptions that a certain Arthur von Wimmersperg benifited from in the 1920's/1930's. It would seem that Arthur von Wimmersperg was born around 1847. In January 1925 he adopted my grandfather, Johann Toeller, who became Joachim von Wimmersperg-Toeller in order to immigrate to the USA. My grandfather was recalled to Germany in May 1934 to explain to the court why he should be allowed to keep his adopted name. I have court testiments which outline his political history and based on this the Nazi court allowed him to keep his adopted surname.

My family history has nothing to do with your beautiful house or with the von Wimmersperg family but it is a fascinating story nevertheless. It would be interesting to ask the descendant of the vW's gardener if he knew an "Arthur vW." Sounds like there must be many colourful anecdotes about the family if the house was lost in a card game. Perhaps this card game led to a situation where the family name had to be sold in order to maintain a certain lifestyle.

You can rule out Udo vW in your family research. He was my father and died last year. You can rule out my brother Julian. There are other vW who may be related. Heinrich and Frances vW who immigrated to USA in 1946 must have descendants you could track down. Heinrich was Arthur's cousin. He was born in 1900 and was the inventor of the "von wimmersperg" machine gun. There is an address of a "Freifrau von Wimmersperg" in Sonnenhofstr 4; D-61462 Koenigstein im Taunus. There is also a "Laura vW" in Berlin who heads a Peace Movement and grew up in Breslau before and during WW2 who could be related to the family who used to live in your house.

It would be fascinating to hear some accounts of the vW in the 1800's.

Alisa


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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#63

Post by alisa » 12 Jul 2010, 14:02

Johannes Toeller ...although off the topic there were a few posts about him. I found some snippets of information about him in Ulrike Weber-Felber's book "Oekonomie der Arisierung" 2004. Perhaps someone has a copy of the book...

It seems that he had business troubles because of his involvement with Jewish businesses or partners (I think his business was taken over by the Nazis). He was deemed untrustworthy politically because of this involvement. I still wonder whether the party codes mentioned previously had something to do with his being partly Jewish? He was expelled from the NSDAP because of an infringement of these articles. There is more to this story than tax evasion.

R.J.K.O.
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#64

Post by R.J.K.O. » 06 Aug 2010, 20:08

mapugu wrote:
Liste Stadelheim 2.Hundertsch.LaPo300634.jpg
u
(initial list in the very first posting)

Can anyone decipher what is written next to the name of Schragmüller? If my interpretation is correct he was released at 7.30 on July 1st on behalf of somone ("auf Befehl")...well who? Could it be the Bayerische Politische Polizei? And then it says something like "transferred" (übermittelt) - to whom?? I've trouble recognising any words, could it perhaps read Wagner (the Gauleiter) or some location (Berlin, Lichterfelde)??

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#65

Post by Zsasz » 02 Sep 2010, 02:20

Harking back to the list of people arrested on June 30th and taken to Stadelheim prison that is on display in the initial posting, I'd like to elaborate on the matter of "Anton Eichinger" and "Josef Werner" who are mentioned among those arrested. Who were they and why were they detained? It would be crucial for me to get their dates of birth, 'cause if I had those I could try to salvage their SA and NSDAP papers in the federal archives. However, without dates of birth it's close to impossible for me to find those papers since the names Anton Eichinger and Josef Werner are to frequent to filter the right Eichinger and Werner out of the multitude of namesakes of theirs.

mapugu
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#66

Post by mapugu » 29 Apr 2011, 12:01

mapugu wrote: In respect of Georg von Detten, Fritz von Krausser, Konrad Schragmüller and Hans Joachim von Falkenhausen, which all four were killed at Berlin-Lichterfelde I am lookig for details about their transfer from Munich to Berlin.
And also about other high ranking SA-Leaders, which were not shooted and not listed above, like e.g. SA-Staf. Ferdinand Prinz von Isenburg and SA-Gruf. Karl Schreyer. Last two were like the others captured at Munich but then arrested at the Columbia-House in Berlin. Can anybody help with details about their transfer?
thanks
mapugu
I´m comming back to my own and first questeion in this topic. Here is to find an interesting document i.r.o. the transfer from Munich to Berlin of Georg von Detten, Fritz von Krausser, Hans Joachim von Falkenhausen and Karl Schreyer
confidential communication Schreyer, Karl-310152-p6.JPG
confidential communication Schreyer, Karl-310152-p6 (source: http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/archiv/zs/zs-0357_1.pdf)
Schreyer was temporary discharged from prison, went to Magdeburg, was there captured again, transfered to Berlin und then killed in Lichterfelde.

Zsasz
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#67

Post by Zsasz » 30 Apr 2011, 03:04

Nice finding. There must have been further transports to Berlin though, 'cause there are some other folks who were arrested in Munich and slain in Berlin such as Karl Ernst's right-hand man Wilhelm Sander.

BTW: Do you have any details on the Schreyer file from the IFZ? I'd be interested to learn how man pages it does comprise and what sort of material it contains? As far as I can tell from references to it throughout the literature it contains at least one interview/personal account from the 1950s. Is that all, or is there some additional material in it, such as correspondence of him and the IFZ or internal notes by the IFZ about him?

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mty
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#68

Post by mty » 06 Jun 2011, 13:18

To my understanding, Schreyer was not killed in Lichterfelde (instead, he died in Berlin, 1956). He was held at Columbia-Haus on July 2nd. According to his statement (27.5.1949), he was about to be transferred to Lichterfelde to be shot but then an SS-Standartenführer appearead and informed those present that no shootings were to take place anymore.

Rudolf Lehmann comments this in Leibstandarte vol I by noting that there were no Standartenführers in LAH on 02.07.1934, although Otto Reich was promoted to SS-Staf on 01.07.34. If we are to believe Schreyer that his observation is correct (as an SA officer he surely was familiar with rank badges), then who this SS-Standartenführer could have been? Only one possibility comes to my mind immediately and that is Karl Wolff. Although Wolff does not relate to anything like that in his later statements, he in any case could be considered a person of choice (for Himmler) for ensuring that the most crucial messages were communicated. Another possibility is Reich, especially because Schreyer mentioned that the mysterious Standartenführer was from Leibstandarte (thus wearing "Adolf Hitler" cufftitle, since there were no other distinctive insignia). How well known a face Karl Wolff, then 1. Adjutant of the RFSS, was overall by summer 1934? At least later on he would be a very familiar sight and certainly an SA-Gruppenführer would have recognized him and not called him simply "an SS-Standartenführer"...

On the other hand, the whole statement of Schreyer is rather unreliable when it comes to details since he for example claims to have heard shooting to his cell although it is verified that no executions took place in Columbia-Haus prison.

Since 01.07.1934, SS guard details at Columbia-Haus were refurnished on Himmler's orders. Members of Allgemeine-SS, mostly from Sta. 42 were temporarily replaced by LAH troops, under command of SS-Hstuf Leroux and later SS-Ostuf Keilhaus.

To mapugu and Zsasz: have you come across the so-called "Schumacher Collection" in the federal archives at Coblenz? According to Lehmann, it provides "...ample evidence of the correctness of the Leibstandarte guard units' behavior in the Columbiahaus prison". Perhaps these might contain something worth checking if not already done :)

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#69

Post by Zsasz » 06 Jun 2011, 21:12

Schreyer did indeed survive.

According to my research Otto Reich commanded the firing squad in Stadelheim prison, therefore he was not present in Berlin.

According to one witness account I perused Walter Fritsch the chief of the SA-Feldpolizei (which was - despite its name - an organization controlled by Hermann Göring) was among the members of makeshift court martial in Lichterfelde which passed the death sentences on the SA-leaders who were taken there. A second member of this court martial, I presume was Leroux. One person who survived the purge stated that Dietrich was present when his death sentence was announced. However, Dietrich only returned in the evening of July 1st, while that person stated he was court martialled on June 30th. So he must be mixing up at least one detail.

The two men in charge in Lichterfelde were Taubert and Wagner. Gildisch testified that Wagner "defiled" Karl Ernst after his death sentence by ripping all insignia and orders from his uniform.

Furthermore I know that Kohlroser was present during the executions.

One more thing: Some of the folks who were promoted after the purge were already referred to by the ranks they were officially appointed to only after the purge during the purge itsel: E.G. Paul Schulz writes in his memoirs that a man he met at Gestapo headquarters in the evening of June 30th - and who can beyond any reasonable doubt be identified as Hermann Behrends - was referred to as Obersturmbannführer by his fellow SS-men, even though Behrends' official promotion took only place about ten days later (he received a letter written on July 10th by the SS Personnell Office telling him that he was being promoted to the rank of Obersturmbannführer and that the promotion had become effective with the official promotion date of July 4th). So obviously a few folks were upgraded within the SS-hierarchy immediatley before or during the purge, however only received their new ranks officially some days later since the official administartive implementation of their promotions required some time to pass through the responsible channels of the SS-Personnel-Office.

I seem to recall that Johannson and Schneller were also promoted to the ranks of Standartenführers after the purge. Both of them were important members of the staff of Otto Dietrich, so they would be sensible candidates.

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mty
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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#70

Post by mty » 07 Jun 2011, 02:33

I was under impression that Wagner - like Dietrich and Reich - was in Munich still on June 30th. According to LAH Tagesbefehl 209 (30.06.34), SS-Stubaf Kohlroser was left in command in Lichterfelde.
...two Schützenkompanien from the two Leibstandarte Bataillone were combined under leadership of Obersturmbannführer Reich and Sturmbannführer Jürgen Wagner
Gildisch's assertion before this court that he reported to the Gestapo with eighteen men from "his" company at the order of Sturmbannführer Jürgen Wagner, commander of the II. Bataillon, can be decisively contradicted. It has been proved that Sturmbannführer Wagner was in Munich at this time with the two companies mentioned before; evidence cannot be found, moreover, either in the federal archives in Coblenz or in the memories of any survivors from that period that Gildisch ever commanded a company of the Leibstandarte.
Source: Lehmann / Leibstandarte vol I, pg. 21, 23

The two companies were put on train about noon on July 1st and reached the barracks at about 24.00, although Dietrich had already returned by plane on afternoon. If we assume that Wagner was in Munich, he might have returned together with Dietrich and thus might have been involved in proceedings of 11 shootings on July 1st.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#71

Post by mapugu » 08 Jun 2011, 14:12

Excuse - this was a fatal typing error:
mapugu wrote: Schreyer was temporary discharged from prison, went to Magdeburg, was there captured again, transfered to Berlin und then killed in Lichterfelde.
correct is:
Schragmüller was temporary discharged from prison, went to Magdeburg, was there captured again, transfered to Berlin und then killed in Lichterfelde.

I´m so sorry
mapugu

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#72

Post by Zsasz » 09 Jun 2011, 01:33

I'm somewhat skeptical with regard to Lehmann's book on the LSSAH. He was a former member of the troop - so he had a vested interest in portraying it in as positive a light as possible. From what I've read of his account it I have gained the impression that he was glossing over a lot of things in order to protect his former comrades' reputation (and perhaps shield them from legal prosecution).

E.g. he claims none of the LSSAH troops left behind in Lichterfelde after Dietrich and 2/3rds of the troop depatred to Bavaria left the grounds of the LSSAH during the Purge in order to prove his point that they could not have been involved in any of the killings outside of the confines of their barracks. However, all witness accounts of the raid of Papen's office agree that the SS troopers who raided it were members of the LSSAH.

There are also some factual errors in Lehmann's book. For instances he states that Gerd Voss and Daniel Gerth were shot on June 30th (copying the dated from the original Gestapo list that is being kept in the Federal Archive) - even though the accounts of surviving SA men who, were awaiting their execution together with Gerth and Voss prove that both were only sho on July 1st.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#73

Post by Zsasz » 25 Jun 2011, 20:53

I finally managed to uncover a hint with regard to the identity of the ominous person only named "Krause" on the list of those killed during the 1934 purge: The other day I skimmed through the NSDAP papers of Karl Ernst's driver Stenzel. They include a report on a car accident that took place in 1932 and resulted in Stenzel being paid some reimbursement by the NSDAP's adversity aid fund.

As witnesses of the accident who can confirm his testimony Stenzel points to Karl Ernst and a man named Kraus, whom he refers to as Ernst's chief of staff (Stabsfuehrer). Naturally I'd like to fathom out Kraus' precise identity in order to check whether he was killed two years later during the purge (and thus is identical with Krause) or whether he survived.

Consequentially, I was wondering if anyone around here has the old Führerbefehle or Gruppenbefehle of the SA at his disposal and was thus in a position to check whether there is anymore data on a person named Kraus who acted as Stabsführer of the SA-Untergruppe Berlin Ost at some stage in between July 1932 and March 1933. A first name would be swell, but any other data might also be helpful.

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#74

Post by mapugu » 26 Jun 2011, 19:29

Hi Zsasz,
re.: Friedrich Krauß
Führerbefehl Nr. II of 09.09.1932, page 6:
FB II 09091932 p.6.JPG
Führerbefehl Nr. 12 of 15.03.1933, page 4:
FB12 15031933 p.4.JPG
Führerbefehl Nr. 23 of 27.03.1934, page 6:
"beauftragt wird m.d.W.d.G. des Stabsführers der Brigade 6 (Danzig): Standartenführer Friedrich Krauß m.W.v. 1.3.34 unter Enthebung von seiner bisherigen Dienststellung als Standartenführer z.b.V. der Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg;"

Führerbefehl Nr. 27 of 31.10.1934, page 5:
"Zur besonderen Verwendung der Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg wird gestellt: Standartenführer Friedrich Krauß m.W.v. 10.8.34 unter Enthebung von seiner bisherigen Dienststellung als m.d.W.d.G. des Stabsführers der Brigade 6 (Danzig) beauftragt"

Führerbefehl Nr. 28 of 09.11.1934, page 3:
"Befördert werden zum Oberführer:
...
der z.b.V. der Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg gestellte Standartenführer Friedrich Krauß m.W.v. 9.11.34"

Hope those data are useful.
Best
Manfred

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Re: Blood Purge: captured/arrested at Munich - killed in Ber

#75

Post by Zsasz » 27 Jun 2011, 02:26

Thank you very much indeed.

As a token, here another little something I found:

At some stage someone named Hoffmann-Koeppen drew up a list of all those allegedly kiled. This list was later on presented to someone who survived the killings at Lichterfelde and was questioned about the various names on Hoffmann-Koeppen's list:

When asked to comment on Krause he stated:

"Krause: ist auch nicht erschossen worden" (unfortunately he does not give any details on who that Krause was and what function he had)

However he confirms the presence of Leonardo Conti and Kohlroser during at the least some of the executions:

"Villain: Sein Tod wurde durch persönlichen Haß von Conti verursacht. Conti hat bei der Erschiessung Villains zugesehen, er stand dicht neben dem Leutnant, der die Erschiessung kommandierte. Villain blähte sich so auf, dass sein Schulterriemen sich straff über die Brust spannte. Die Kugeln müssen den Schulterriemen gespalten haben - ein Stück Leder flog durch die Luft und Herrn Conti über das Gesicht (Kohlroser hat das auch mit angesehen und es mir später bestätigt)."

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