Leiter eines Oberamtes, armband wearers

[clmesser]

Hello All,

Does anyone know who the twenty or so people were who filled the position of Leiter eines Oberamtes? Also, was Viktor Brack one of these people? We've been studying the position structure and are having difficulty putting a name to those armbands.

Thanks for any help.

[Mark Costa]

First off, I am assuming you meant Oberst-Amtes armbands. All of the Hauptbefehlsleiters would have worn this armband and most of the Oberbefehlsleiters. So here is a list of most of those wearers. Some of the Oberbefehlsleiters would have worn the Leiter eines Hauptamtes armbands.

These are the Hauptbefehlsleiters below that would have worn the Oberstamt armbands. This armband is extremely rare. Some collectors say it is harder to find than a Reichsleiter's armband.

Baur, Wilhelm
Reinhardt, Fritz
Saupert, Hans
Schmidt, Friedrich
Selzner, Claus
Todt, Fritz

These are the Oberbefehlsleiters that I know wore it. Some of the other Oberbefehsleiters wore only the Hauptamt bands. Speer never wore 1939 style insignia but would have been eligible to wear the Oberstamt band if he so desired.

Backe, Herbert
Conti, Leonardo
Fischer, Hugo
Friedrichs, Helmut
Hilgenfeldt, Erich
Leibrandt, Georg
Lingg, Anton
Marrenbach, Otto
Mehnert, Fritz
Ruoff, Paul
Schmeer, Rudolf
Simon, Heinrich
Speer, Albert
Thierack, Otto
Urban, Gotthard

This armband was only worn at Reich level. So the Oberbefehlsleiters at gau level were not eligible.

Mark Costa

[clmesser]

Thanks Mark for the quick reply. I was trying to connect one to someone under Philipp Bouhler. Thanks again.

[Pitino]

I thought that we positively negated Wilhelm Baur from the vaunted HBefL rank???? The only men listed as (Leiter eines Oberamtes) on the 26.9.1940 document are as follows:

Heinrich Simon
Otto Marrenbach
Friedrich Schmidt
Fritz Mehnert
Dr. Leonardo Conti
Erich Hilgenfeldt
Gotthard Urban
Hans Saupert
Dr. Paul Ruoff
Dr. Anton Lingg
Hugo Fischer

This was a 26.9.1940 document so some subtractions and additions had to be made prior to the end of the war. For instance: Fritz Mehnert was killed on the Russian Front in 1941 and his ultimate replacement, HDL Fritz Marrenbach, may have taken his place as Leiter eines Oberamtes (Hauptorganisationsamtes). Then, Gotthard Urban was killed in 1941 on the Russian Front too. It is possible that his replacement, BefL Helmut Stellrecht, was the new Leiter eines Oberamtes im Dienststelle Rosenberg. Hans Saupert would retire from the Reichsschatzmeisterei in 1943 and no successor was ever named. So, I am guessing the Leiter eines Oberamtes als Stabsleiter des RSM was phased out by RL Schwarz. Friedrich Schmidt was replaced as Leiter des Hauptschulungsamtes in 1942 and I am unsure if his replacement, Heinrich Bruhn, was given the Leiter eines Oberamtes or if he would retain the Leiter eines Hauptamtes role.

Pitino

[Mark Costa]

Pitino:

It turns out that Baur was promoted later in the war. The reason I questioned it, was because he was so young. But after researching further I forgot that he joined the party at a very early age -- being one of the youngest holders of the Blood Order. He was also one of the few who held all three of the big decorations, Coburg Badge, BO and GPB. He was Amann's right hand man and we forget that he was the illegitimate son of Sister Pia !!! Hence he tenure and positions were far more extensive than his age would reveal.

Mark Costa

[Pitino]

Mark,
-I have Baur being listed as HDL der NSDAP Wilhelm Baur in February 1945. The 1944 NSDAP Jahrbuch has Baur listed as Hauptdienstleiter and I think it was finished around (October 1943). Do you know when this promotion could have happened?

Pitino

[Igor Karpov]

Guys, just to finally (I hope so) sort these things out - once again, I hope so. First of all, I will duplicate part of my post from 01.10.2010 (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... r#p1513066) and underscore some tricky moments:

"So, here we have a chronology of Baur's ranks at a certain date, compiled by me using original documents.

1. Rank - Hauptdienstleiter, Date - February 6, 1942;

2. Rank - Hauptdienstleiter; Date - April 9, 1943;

3. Rank - Oberbefehlsleiter; Date - April 16, 1943;

4. Rank - Oberbefehlsleiter; Date - December 3, 1943;

5. Rank - Oberbefehlsleiter; Date - June 22, 1944;

6. Rank - Hauptbefehlsleiter; Date - August 21, 1944.

Anyway, the point is that it was possible to jump from two to three grades in the party hierarchy. For example, in September 1, 1942 the Oberdienstleiter Arno Schickedanz was presented to the award of rank Oberbefehlsleiter, but Oberbereichsleiter Walter Malletke and Oberbereichsleiter Dr. Georg Leibbrandt (which Mark mistakenly identified as Oberbefehlsleiter - so correct your list, Pitino) - of Oberdienstleiter. Of course, it doesn't mean that they actually received the reffered titles, but I'm working to obtain confirmation or refutation of any of their promotion".

[Igor Karpov]

Obviously, we have a lot of confusion (a total mess, actually) with Baur's ranks, and my latest findings will only aggravate the situation on question about specific date of this or that promotion - but not the "final" result:

1. Rank - Oberdienstleiter; Date - April 22, 1943;

2. Rank - Oberbefehlsleiter; Date - June 6, 1943;

3. Rank - Oberbefehlsleiter; Date - April 19, 1944;

Regards,
Igor

[Igor Karpov]

Remember the line? "Rank - Hauptbefehlsleiter; Date - August 21, 1944". It appears that it was a mistake - not mine, 'cause the next document clarifies the situation in all its entirety:

1. Rank - Hauptbefehlsleiter ("-befehls" has been stricken out, instead "-stabsleiter" was added); Date - August 23, 1944.

So now we can positively identify Baur as Oberbefehlsleiter der NSDAP and Hauptstabsleiter (= Leiter eines Ob. Amtes).

Regards,
Igor

[Pitino]

Igor,
-I like the period documents, but you have to look at those carefully too because they made mistakes back then as well. I have period documents from around the same time from different entities and they list Karl Hederich as Oberdienstleiter, Befehlsleiter, & Oberbefehlsleiter. How can a party member hold 3 ranks at the same time??? Also, have period documents that list Karl Janowsky as Oberbefehlsleiter & Hauptdienstleiter at the same time. I am almost certain that Janowsky never attained the Oberbefehlsleiter rank, but I do know that he did attain the HDL rank! Finally, have other period documents that list Hermann Ried as Oberdienstleiter & Hauptdienstleiter at the same time. I was fairly positive that Baur never attained the Hauptbefehlsleiter rank. I am positive that he did attain the HDL rank. The 1944 NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHE JAHRBUCH, P. 188 has this: Stabsleiter des Reichsleiter fur die Presse: Hauptdienstleiter Wilhelm Baur. I have 2 other 1944 period books that list Baur as Hauptdienstleiter der NSDAP. I do feel good about his jump to Oberbefehlsleiter per your documents, but I think the HBefL Wilhem Baur discussion is done for now unless some other documents surface after the fact.

Pitino