Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
-We have talked on this forum about Christiansen being involved in the Reichsleiter meetings, but never being awarded the title. I have found a period reference circa late 1938/early 1939 that lists Christiansen as a Reichsleiter with the titile along side the other Reichsleiter. It is a copy of the Großdeutschland: die NSDAP -Aufbau der NSDAP, ihrer Gliederungen und der angeschlossenen Verbände. The first part looks like this:
Die Reichsleiter:
(listing all the known Reichleiter with 1 addition, Friedrich Christiansen).
The second and more convincing part looks like this:
Die Gliederungen der NSDAP:
Das NSFK:
-Mit Erlass des Führers und Reichkanzlers vom 17. April 1937 wurde der NSFK gegründet und zu seinem Führer der bekannte "Pour le Merite" Flieger, Generalleutnant Christiansen.
Korpsführung des NSFK:
-Korpsführer: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
-I cannot post it on here because it is too long, but I can email it to those interested!
Pitino
Die Reichsleiter:
(listing all the known Reichleiter with 1 addition, Friedrich Christiansen).
The second and more convincing part looks like this:
Die Gliederungen der NSDAP:
Das NSFK:
-Mit Erlass des Führers und Reichkanzlers vom 17. April 1937 wurde der NSFK gegründet und zu seinem Führer der bekannte "Pour le Merite" Flieger, Generalleutnant Christiansen.
Korpsführung des NSFK:
-Korpsführer: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
-I cannot post it on here because it is too long, but I can email it to those interested!
Pitino
Last edited by Pitino on 08 Oct 2015, 16:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
It doesn't sound too convincing to me, rather it sound like a peace of popular-form journalism: "der bekannte "Pour le Merite" Flieger" … no official declaration would ever mention, that Christiansen was a well known pour-le-Merite. To me it doesn't change that Christiansen was Korpsführer des NSFK, as Keller was after him … without being Reichsleiter der NSDAP.
Best
Halfdan S.
Best
Halfdan S.
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
This period reference was not popular-form journalism and the "pour le Merite" referencing comes from the official establishment order of the NSFK by the Fuhrer & Reichskanzler! Why would this party publication of ranks, formations & attached organizations get the ranks and titles correct for everyone else in the Party, except Christiansen?? It is just a listing of important party and government positions at that time with no made up rhetoric. Look at this attachment & then you can decide if it is popular-form journalism! https://www.findbuch.at/tl_files/data/a ... ierung.pdf
Pitino
Pitino
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
Pitino:
I have to agree with Halfdan. I have seen many books and literature listing men like Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann as Reichsleiters but the fact is they never were given the actual title/rank of Reichsleiter der NSDAP. The NSDAP Jahrbuch is very specific as to who were actual Reichsleiters. The Jahrbuchs end in 1943 and hence it is possible that Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann may have been promoted after this, but highly unlikely as Bormann was trying to put an end to the rank and eliminate their numbers. Christiansen is always listed just underneath the Reichsleiters, as no one seemed to know what to do with him. He was technically higher than a Reichshauptdienstleiter/Hauptbefehlsleiter during his tenure as NSFK Korpsführer but lower than a Reichsleiter. As I have stated before Christiansen was never invited to the wartime Reichsleiter/Gauleiter meetings at FHQ. And Keller was not invited until late 1944.
But with that being said, the NSFK-Korpsführer would certainly be included as would Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann if I was writing a book about the Reichsleiters. But that would be a personal preference on my part.
In regard to my comment above regarding Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann, it has always been intriguing to me that Axmann and Kraus wore collar insignia equal to Himmler, Lutze and Hühnlein. Hühnlein's collar tabs changed to match Himmler's and Lutze's upon his promotion to Reichsleiter in 1938. I find it quite interesting that Schepmann wore collar tabs similar to Huhnlein's PRE-Reichsleiter tabs. And several months after his appointment to Stabschef, Schepmann all of a sudden changes is tabs to match Himmler's, Axmann's and Kraus. WHAT HAPPENED TO MAKE HIM CHANGE THE STYLE. And is this an indication of a promotion as it did back in 1938 with Hühnlein ?? Food for thought.
Mark
I have to agree with Halfdan. I have seen many books and literature listing men like Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann as Reichsleiters but the fact is they never were given the actual title/rank of Reichsleiter der NSDAP. The NSDAP Jahrbuch is very specific as to who were actual Reichsleiters. The Jahrbuchs end in 1943 and hence it is possible that Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann may have been promoted after this, but highly unlikely as Bormann was trying to put an end to the rank and eliminate their numbers. Christiansen is always listed just underneath the Reichsleiters, as no one seemed to know what to do with him. He was technically higher than a Reichshauptdienstleiter/Hauptbefehlsleiter during his tenure as NSFK Korpsführer but lower than a Reichsleiter. As I have stated before Christiansen was never invited to the wartime Reichsleiter/Gauleiter meetings at FHQ. And Keller was not invited until late 1944.
But with that being said, the NSFK-Korpsführer would certainly be included as would Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann if I was writing a book about the Reichsleiters. But that would be a personal preference on my part.
In regard to my comment above regarding Axmann, Kraus and Schepmann, it has always been intriguing to me that Axmann and Kraus wore collar insignia equal to Himmler, Lutze and Hühnlein. Hühnlein's collar tabs changed to match Himmler's and Lutze's upon his promotion to Reichsleiter in 1938. I find it quite interesting that Schepmann wore collar tabs similar to Huhnlein's PRE-Reichsleiter tabs. And several months after his appointment to Stabschef, Schepmann all of a sudden changes is tabs to match Himmler's, Axmann's and Kraus. WHAT HAPPENED TO MAKE HIM CHANGE THE STYLE. And is this an indication of a promotion as it did back in 1938 with Hühnlein ?? Food for thought.
Mark
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
Here is an example of how the Official 1940 NSDAP Braun Haus Telephone Book "handled" Christiansen. Note the line above his name to separate him from the Reichsleiters. The 1940 edition would have been printed in late 1939.
Mark Costa
Mark Costa
Last edited by Mark Costa on 07 Oct 2015, 20:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
Here are the examples of the PRE-Reichsleiter tabs that Hühnlein wore from 1935-38. Note that Schepmann wore the same type for several months. Some writers and collectors call Schepmann's ACTING Stabschef tabs. But the fact is Schepmann wore these long after he was referred to as Stabschef and signed document as such. Note also during the time he wore the tabs he wore full Stabschef shoulders boards. Hence he wore these PRE-Reichsleiter tabs during his tenure as Stabschef. In late 1943 he switched to tabs matching Himmler, Lutze, Axmann and Kraus. But Axmann and Kraus never wore these half wreath types. Do these tabs denote someone not yet promoted to Reichsleiter?? If you follow the Hühnlein timeline, these tabs seem to denote such a situation. Does that mean that Schepmann indeed was promoted to Reichsleiter at a later date?
Mark Costa
Mark Costa
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Mark,
-Very valued information as always! I didn't mean to state that Christiansen was a without a doubt a Reichsleiter. I just wanted forum members such as you & Halfdan to view the reference link that I attached above to get discussion going. He is listed as Reichsleiter 2 different times in that reference, which was before your 1940 Braunes Haus reference. However, Christiansen is listed last on my reference Reichsleiter too, instead of after the Reichsleiters with the last names beginning with the letter 'B". Does your Braunes Haus reference have BefL, HDL, ODL & DL attached too? One more thing, the NS Jahrbuch did not end in 1943 as I have a 1944 NS-Jahrbuch. Thanks again!
Pitino
-Very valued information as always! I didn't mean to state that Christiansen was a without a doubt a Reichsleiter. I just wanted forum members such as you & Halfdan to view the reference link that I attached above to get discussion going. He is listed as Reichsleiter 2 different times in that reference, which was before your 1940 Braunes Haus reference. However, Christiansen is listed last on my reference Reichsleiter too, instead of after the Reichsleiters with the last names beginning with the letter 'B". Does your Braunes Haus reference have BefL, HDL, ODL & DL attached too? One more thing, the NS Jahrbuch did not end in 1943 as I have a 1944 NS-Jahrbuch. Thanks again!
Pitino
Last edited by Pitino on 08 Oct 2015, 16:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen
Pitino:
No it does not list all of the holders just those at the Braunhaus. I did not mean that Jahrbuch's end in 1943. There is of course a 1944 edition but as always it contains info up to sometime in late 1943. These books were put together by the printer to be available on January 1, 1944. So any changes made in very late 1943 or early 1944 would not be in the 1944 edition.
Mark
No it does not list all of the holders just those at the Braunhaus. I did not mean that Jahrbuch's end in 1943. There is of course a 1944 edition but as always it contains info up to sometime in late 1943. These books were put together by the printer to be available on January 1, 1944. So any changes made in very late 1943 or early 1944 would not be in the 1944 edition.
Mark
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Reviewed a copy of the 1940 NS-Jahrbuch today and it has Friedrich Christiansen listed under the Reichsleiter list, but when looked at closely there is a line seperating his name from that of Reichsschatzmeister Schwarz. Just like in the 1940 Adressbuch that Mark posted yesterday!
Pitino
Pitino
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Here is something from the Luftwaffe command and the Reichsleitung in early 1943: Der Korpsführer, General der Flieger Christiansen, untersteht dem RdL. u. ObdL. u. ist den Reichsleitern der NSDAP gleichgestellt."[/i] This translates to Christiansen being subordinate to the Reichsleitung and the ObdL and is Reichsleiter der NSDAP assimilated. So, I am guessing that it means what Mark was saying earlier. Christiansen is Korpsführer, but not Reichsleiter. He is just Reichsleiter assimilated without the title!!!! Seems as if they would have made up some title just for Christiansen & later Axmann, Keller & Kraus. In between, the vaunted Reichsleiter rank and the still very exalted Hauptbefehlsleiter rank. Thanks!
Pitino
Pitino
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
W-R-O-N-G! RdL wasn't the Reichsleitung of the NSDAP, it would be Reichsminister der Luftfahrt and ObdL would be Oberbefehlsleiter der Luftwaffe, which again means Hermann Göring. The NSDAP seems to have had problems incorporation the airborne/-protection para military forces into the NSDAP. Christiansen, as his successor Alfred Keller, were both generals, as were all the Presidents of the Reichsluftschutzbund, that in 1944 was incorporated as the 8th angeschlossener Verband der NSDAP (that is, I have never been able to find out who actually succeeded Hirschauer as President at the end of January 1945). Already by their rank these officers have a problem reaching any kind of position within the NSDAP, as it wasn't allowed for active officers of the Wehrmacht to be members of the NSDAP - see f.ex. ReinhardH's post in this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=178680. True that for some officers you can find a party number, but that was bestowed them in connection with AH decorating them with the Goldenes Ehrenzeichen der NSDAP - one example would be Jodl.
Anyway I take that is (partly) why neither Christiansen nor Keller were Reichsleiter der NSDAP - the party establishment simply didn't know what to do with these two associated organizations.
Best
Halfdan S.
Anyway I take that is (partly) why neither Christiansen nor Keller were Reichsleiter der NSDAP - the party establishment simply didn't know what to do with these two associated organizations.
Best
Halfdan S.
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Halfdan,
-My mistake on the RdL& thank you for catching it. However, what you have is WRONG too! It was not Oberbefehlsleiter der Luftwaffe, but Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe! Give me some time to decipher my notes and I may be able to help you out on the Hirschauer replacement.
Pitino
-My mistake on the RdL& thank you for catching it. However, what you have is WRONG too! It was not Oberbefehlsleiter der Luftwaffe, but Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe! Give me some time to decipher my notes and I may be able to help you out on the Hirschauer replacement.
Pitino
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Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Halfdan:
Again you absolutely correct. The NSFK although an independent NSDAP organization, was considered an entity of the Luftwaffe Ministry under Göring. I can only assume that Göring would not want the Korpsführer NSFK to have Reichsleiter rank as it would seem to indicate an independence. Goering certainly would not want that to happen. Hence the party did not know where in the scheme of things the NSFK-Korpsführer ranked. The position was certainly higher than the Reichshauptdienstleiters/Hauptbefehlsleiters but lower than a Reichsleiter. As stated before, the NSFK-Korpsführer was not invited to Reichsleiter/Gauleiter conferences until very late in the war. And it was probable that Keller was invited because the NSFK was training young HJ pilots in a last ditch effort etc.
Mark
Again you absolutely correct. The NSFK although an independent NSDAP organization, was considered an entity of the Luftwaffe Ministry under Göring. I can only assume that Göring would not want the Korpsführer NSFK to have Reichsleiter rank as it would seem to indicate an independence. Goering certainly would not want that to happen. Hence the party did not know where in the scheme of things the NSFK-Korpsführer ranked. The position was certainly higher than the Reichshauptdienstleiters/Hauptbefehlsleiters but lower than a Reichsleiter. As stated before, the NSFK-Korpsführer was not invited to Reichsleiter/Gauleiter conferences until very late in the war. And it was probable that Keller was invited because the NSFK was training young HJ pilots in a last ditch effort etc.
Mark
Re: Reichsleiter Friedrich Christiansen?
Halfdan,
-As far as I can ascertain from my notes, Hirschauer, was the last Präs. des Reichsluftschutzbundes. I have the same date as you do, (Jan. 30, 1945). Is that the day the RLB closed for good?
Pitino
-As far as I can ascertain from my notes, Hirschauer, was the last Präs. des Reichsluftschutzbundes. I have the same date as you do, (Jan. 30, 1945). Is that the day the RLB closed for good?
Pitino