Reichsminister ID Needed

[Michal78]

Mark,

I know but if it is not Franz Gürtner, there is not many options who it might be.

Michal

[Mark Costa]

Michal:

That's the point. As all of the other suspects are in the larger photo and the others in this series of over 20 photos, this man stands out as being unidentified. I am thinking it has to be Inquart, as he is the only RM not accounted for. This means that the photo has to be taken around mid to late 1940. The series of photos seem to be taken at a Railroad platform which one can only assume to be the Berlin Anhalter Bahnhof. In the entire series of photos all the Reichsministers, Reichsleiters and Gauleiters have gathered. It could be they're waiting for Adolf to return from his France triumph?? I can only speculate. But as everyone can be seen in this photo and others, it leaves only Inquart. The bad lighting it what is making it hard to see him clearly.

Mark

[Georges JEROME]

Attached is a photo from the NARA showing 4 Reichsministers -- Schacht, Popitz (IN UNIFORM !) Kerrl and an unknown man wearing Reichsminister uniform. I have been unable to identify this man which normally would be fairly easy, as there were only a couple dozen RM's and all of them well known men in the Reich. Could this be an "acting" RM ?? Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

Mark Costa

Dear Mark,

if I refer to page 83 "In the service of the Reich"
the description of sleeve insignia :
Groupe I - Reichs Ministers : 4 stars aligned on a horizontal line
- Department chiefs : 3 stars on a horizontal line with one centered below

as well comment of picture page 85

so your man must be a Department Chief not a Reich Minister


Georges

[Mark Costa]

Georges:

I hate to say it, but the book is WRONG. It has been shown that Reichsministers wore both styles of 4 stars across and 3 Up and 1 Down. This can be seen in many photos of all the Reichsministers. I can show you hundreds of photos of both them wearing both styles. The two are just a production variation and nothing more. It appears that the first style of 4 stars across was too confusing as the two end stars were conflicting with the large wreaths and were hard to see. Hence some of the RM's switched to the 3 up 1 down style. The following RM's wore insignias: Darre, Gurtner,Seldte, Dorpmuller, Terboven, Hans Frank. All of these men were RM's and wore the 3 up and 1 down Style. And no men other than RM's wore 4 stars of either style. Hence this man has to be an RM. I have made comparison with Inquart here. It seems to be him.

Mark

[Mark Costa]

Georges:

In response to your statement about the insignia. Here are some examples of the two styles being wore by Reichsministers. Frank wearing both styles and Dorpmuller wearing the 3 up 1 down style. So you can see RM's wore both and only RM's wore the 4 star versions whatever configuration. In regards to page 85 of "In Service of the Reich". The photo shows Otto Meissner wearing the 3 up 1 down style. Meissner was a Reichsminister and not a Department Chief.

Mark

[Boby]

Mark, do you have a picture of Inquart wearing the 3+1 insignia? I can only found the ++++ and one May 1940 picture without stars. Was this an early variant?

Thank you

[Georges JEROME]

Dear Mark,

Thanks for clarification.
Popitz was Prussian State Minister (no more Reichsminister in 1933) unfortunatelly I can't see his sleeve
Any comment ?

Georges

[Cartaphilus]

Georges:
Hence some of the RM's switched to the 3 up 1 down style. The following RM's wore insignias: Darre, Gurtner,Seldte, Dorpmuller, Terboven, Hans Frank. All of these men were RM's and wore the 3 up and 1 down Style. And no men other than RM's wore 4 stars of either style. Hence this man has to be an RM. I have made comparison with Inquart here. It seems to be him.

Mark

I think that Funk also wore the Minister insigniamany times, and at least once, on a 1939 pic, Wilhelm Ohnersorge too (very strange, because he always preferred the NSKK uniform, and his special NSFK uniform).

Maybe he isn't a Reichsminister, but a local (Prussian, Bavarian...) State Minister, like Popitz.

[Mark Costa]

Both Funk and Ohnesorge were Reichministers. Funk wore at least three different styles of Sleeve rank insignia -- the 4 stars across, the 3 up 1 down and one that had no stars at all just the wreath and eagle -- Frank wore at 4 different styles of rank sleeve insignia. The State Ministers were considered Reichministers. The regulations were incorrectly written, either by accident or they were changed at some point. The Department Chiefs -- ie. State Secretaries -- never wore any insignia with 4 stars. All State Secretaries ( department chiefs) wore ONLY 3 Star insignia.

Mark

[Mark Costa]

Georges:

Popitz wore the 3 up 1 down sleeve insignia and if I can get permission, I will post another photo from this series that shows his sleeve insignia. Again State Ministers such as Popitz and Meissner were given Reichminister titles in 1938.

Mark

[Mark Costa]

Boby:

As far as I can tell Inquart always wore the 4 Stars across version and the no Stars version. There were at least 5 different versions of the Reichministers sleeve "horseshoes" as they were called by collectors.

4 Stars across.
3 Star Up 1 Star Down
3 Stars Up 1 Down but No Eagle. strange insignia worn by Frank. SHOWN HERE !!
No Stars just Wreath and Eagle -- worn by Funk, Inquart, Ribbentrop, Frank, Frick.
No Stars just Wreath and NO EAGLE -- another rare strange insignia worn by Hans Frank.
Also if you want to include it, is the other Sleeve Eagle and Globe worn by Ribbentrop.

Mark

[Andrey]

Gentlemens, I`m sorry, but these photos are made SS-Kriegsberichter Gösling and no any problems to see them as a whole size.
Source: http://www.kriegsberichter-archive.com/ ... ategory/48

Andrey.

[Cartaphilus]

Could be Otto Meissner?

Edited: I think he is not.

[Mark Costa]

I was not aware that these were available elsewhere. There are 23 photos in all and I checked this site and not all of the photos are on this site just these handful. The person who asked me for help identifying several people in those photos received his directly from the NARA in Washington and as I said there are many more photos than the ones that Andrey posted here or at that SS Site.

Mark

[Michal78]

No...It is not Meissner. He is in this group.
Michal