Did Hitler survive?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Sandeep,

You write, "Old men and boys may be sent up when your country is facing an existential crisis." But not, apparently if the old man is the one who created the catastrophe in the first place. So, it is OK for other limited individuals to die for Hitler in hopeless battle, but not alright for Hitler to take his place beside them! I have seen some special pleading in my time but........

There was no glory in Hitler's death. It was shoddy. Having sacrificed millions of German lives (not to mention others) and berated other Germans, such as latterly the Waffen-SS, for their failure to rescue him and the country from the predicament he had reduced it to, he hid underground until virtually the last possible moment, expecting under age youths to hold an escape rout open, and then committed suicide instead. It was about as worthless an end as was imagineable. He ended as a semi-immolated corpse in a shallow ditch.

Hitler had run out of other people's bodies to interpose between himself and his own fate. He then evaded responsibility and accountability by killing himself, leaving others to carry the can. It was morally about as gutless as one can get. In his end, Hitler was exactly the "lesser man" you alluded to. For that, at least, we can be thankful. An infirm Hitler fighting to the death in combat would have left a far more romantic afterglow for apologists to peddle later as going "down in glory". At least we were spared that.

Sid.

[Annelie]

Sid, I agree with your above statement

There was no glory in Hitler's death. It was shoddy. Having sacrificed millions of German lives (not to mention others) and berated other Germans, such as latterly the Waffen-SS, for their failure to rescue him and the country from the predicament he had reduced it to, he hid underground until virtually the last possible moment, expecting under age youths to hold an escape rout open, and then committed suicide instead. It was about as worthless an end as was imagineable. He ended as a semi-immolated corpse in a shallow ditch.

Hitler had run out of other people's bodies to interpose between himself and his own fate. He then evaded responsibility and accountability by killing himself, leaving others to carry the can. It was morally about as gutless as one can get. In his end, Hitler was exactly the "lesser man" you alluded to. For that, at least, we can be thankful. An infirm Hitler fighting to the death in combat would have left a far more romantic afterglow for apologists to peddle later as going "down in glory". At least we were spared that.

however the Waffen-SS for their failure to rescue him and the country?

Considering his flawed thinking and decision making how could one expect anything less than what happened?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sandeep,

You write, "Old men and boys may be sent up when your country is facing an existential crisis." But not, apparently if the old man is the one who created the catastrophe in the first place. So, it is OK for other limited individuals to die for Hitler in hopeless battle, but not alright for Hitler to take his place beside them! I have seen some special pleading in my time but........

Like I said, in modern times, in modern wars, National leaders are not expected to fight sword in hand in the forward phalanges..wonder if they ever did... in the forward phalanges ans squares I mean. They serve their sides better by sitting in the central command posts, making resources available and giving commands.

Hitler's presence till the end, in the Berlin bunker command post, kept the fight ( whatever it was worth) going. The soldiers in Berlin fought for him (some fought for the roving MPs and Hangmen). If Hitler didnt physically join the combat it was not for want of courage at least.

There was no glory in Hitler's death. It was shoddy. Having sacrificed millions of German lives (not to mention others) and berated other Germans, such as latterly the Waffen-SS, for their failure to rescue him and the country from the predicament he had reduced it to, he hid underground until virtually the last possible moment, expecting under age youths to hold an escape rout open, and then committed suicide instead. It was about as worthless an end as was imagineable. He ended as a semi-immolated corpse in a shallow ditch.

You say he " hid underground "....well if the commander plans to seriously play his role, then he doesnt provide his life and limb as bomb fodder overground, without any particular gain.

You say "..... expecting under age youths to hold an escape rout open, and then committed suicide instead ". Well you are mixing up your facts. He didnt expect the HJ to keep HIS escape route open...since he didnt plan to escape in the first place. The plan was to keep a route open for the Wenck's army coming in.. supplies and troops coming in.. or people on special missions leaving Berlin.

Hitler had run out of other people's bodies to interpose between himself and his own fate. He then evaded responsibility and accountability by killing himself, leaving others to carry the can. It was morally about as gutless as one can get. In his end, Hitler was exactly the "lesser man" you alluded to. For that, at least, we can be thankful.

Actually if he so wanted he had hundreds of thousands of other bodies to cover for him...in some Bavarian redoubt..Norway..wherever he wanted it to be. But like he himself said...whatever was going to happen in Berlin that week,, will happen somewhere else in a few more weeks anyways even if he escapes...so why bother?

An infirm Hitler fighting to the death in combat would have left a far more romantic afterglow for apologists to peddle later as going "down in glory". At least we were spared that.

...But the fear of the lasting and powerful "romantic afterglow" which Hitler's "shoddy" and " gutless" death generated anyways...drove the victorious Superpower to hide his ashes like a treasure chest before finally surreptitiously discarding the same like a bunch of miserable grave robbers or body snatchers !

Ciao
Sandeep

[Michael Kenny]

I can not believe we are trying to put rational decisions into the mind of a man who was clearly insane.

[Michael Kenny]

drove the victorious Superpower to hide his ashes like a treasure chest before finally surreptitiously discarding the same like a bunch of miserable grave robbers or body snatchers !

This was standard for all the war criminals.

[steverodgers801]

Hitler believed in total destruction, as he stated, if Germany cannot win it does not deserve to survive. Speer was ordered to destroy everything possible, he avoided the order by telling Hitler, "if you want to recapture things you have to leave it intact"

[Marcus]

An off-topic post by sandeepmukherjee196 was removed.

/Marcus

[von thoma]

"Hitler's Last Witness" in documentary : http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/docu ... r/3108080/

(Spanish Language)

Special guest; Traudl Junge, Arthur Axmann, Erich Kempka, Willy Johannmeyer, Ilse Braun, Arthur Kannenberg, Hugo Blaschke, etc.

[little grey rabbit]

Is Albert Speer having a little joke here?

On being transferred from Nuremberg to Spandau in the Spandau diaries

We circled for perhaps half an hour over the buildings and ruins of Berlin. While the Dakota flew in great loops, I was able to make out the East-West Axis, which I had completed for Hitler's fiftieth birthday. Then I saw the Olympic Stadium, with its obviously well-tended green lawns, and finally the Chancellery I had designed. It was still there, although damaged by several direct hits. The trees of the Tiergarten had all been felled, so that at first I thought it was an airfield.

Although in point of fact I think Hitler and entourage used a small airstrip to the North-West of Berlin - I forget its name. But Albert was probably kept out of the loop.

Elsewhere Speer records

November 13, 1946 Several days of reverie. Dense fog outside.
The guards are unanimous in their belief that Hitler is still alive.

but makes no comment on this.

OT: But am I the only one who is a wee bit skeptical about Speer's claim he walked around hiding his diary in his shoe for 12 months?

[wolfguy]

To anyone on the forum.
Please help me.

There was a documentary that came out in the late 1990s or early 2000s, I think on the Discovery Channel- it was about looking for Hitler's remains. The spot where he and Braun were apparently buried in Magdeburg was examined with ground-penetrating radar and then dug up using a crane. They also interviewed one of the KGB men who had allegedly dug up and burned the remains.

I cannot find the documentary. I have spent hours googling for it and cannot find it anywhere. Why?
Does anyone know what it is called, where I can find it, or have a copy of it?

Thanks,
Wolfguy

[Beppo Schmidt]

I see no credible reason to believe Hitler survived. There is testimony from various individuals of he and Eva Braun's suicide, the burning of their bodies, etc. Even if they lied to protect Hitler, I'm dubious the truth wouldn't have come out in the decades afterward.

Anyway, Hitler was in poor condition toward the end of the war. He was suffering increasingly from Parkinson's, exacerbated by the Stauffenberg assassination attempt, and being poisoned by his quack doctor Morell. He was probably slowly dying already.

That, and if he survived, where did he go? His presence in the bunker was pretty well confirmed well past the time when Berlin was completely surrounded and being overrun by the Russians, when escape would have been difficult at best.

[little grey rabbit]

I see no credible reason to believe Hitler survived. There is testimony from various individuals of he and Eva Braun's suicide, the burning of their bodies, etc. Even if they lied to protect Hitler, I'm dubious the truth wouldn't have come out in the decades afterward.

My own view is he escaped with the aid of MI6 and OSS in a quasi-negotiated end to the war to avoid a last ditch stand in the Redoubt and also to acquire Germany's nuclear assets instead of the Soviets. After initial reluctance the Soviets played along because
a) they couldn't prove anything and
b) they didn't want a Fuehrer myth to disturb their hold over the German population or admit to their own citizens they had been out-foxed since any claims they did make would be vehemently denied by the West.
Now it is probably only being maintained to preserver the reputations of the military-intelligence establishments on both sides of the former Cold War divide. IE nobody wants to admit to lying about the matter.

Anyway, Hitler was in poor condition toward the end of the war. He was suffering increasingly from Parkinson's, exacerbated by the Stauffenberg assassination attempt, and being poisoned by his quack doctor Morell. He was probably slowly dying already.

We are all slowly dying, but Hitler was suffering from nothing a bracing sea voyage and a good bout of sun-bathing on a U-boat aft deck wouldn't clear up.

That, and if he survived, where did he go? His presence in the bunker was pretty well confirmed well past the time when Berlin was completely surrounded and being overrun by the Russians, when escape would have been difficult at best.

According to Marshall Zhukov's memoirs there was a massed outbreak of a small armored column that was found abandoned about 20 km NW of Berlin. Co-incidentally there is a small airstrip 20 km NW of Berlin. From there Junckers to Denmark and then a smaller party taking Hitler and his immediate entourage to Norway and a couple of waiting U-boats and then Southward-Ho to Argentina.
I think it was Werner Naumann who was with Hitler in encircled Berlin and made it to Argentina in a manner unknown, who would be a good candidate for being a member of that entourage.

Every now and then Argentina makes sporadic moves to look into its Nazi accommodating past, whereupon a bomb will usually go off in a synagogue or Jewish Cultural Centre in Buenos Aires for which Israel, the CIA and the other usual suspects will loudly blame Iran and the historical inquiries are quietly dropped

Of course, this is just my opinion/speculation. I wouldn't insist that anyone should agree with me - particularly those who have a great admiration of US and/or UK military and intelligence hierarchies and culture. It is just what makes sense to me and my personal understanding of the human condition.

[Biber]

Anyway, Hitler was in poor condition toward the end of the war. He was suffering increasingly from Parkinson's, exacerbated by the Stauffenberg assassination attempt, and being poisoned by his quack doctor Morell. He was probably slowly dying already.

We are all slowly dying, but Hitler was suffering from nothing a bracing sea voyage and a good bout of sun-bathing on a U-boat aft deck wouldn't clear up.

We'll have to try that with my dad. Do you guarantee the results?

Anybody know where I can find a U-boat?

[Carl Schwamberger]

...

Anybody know where I can find a U-boat?

Try Chicago.

[steverodgers801]

Why would he want to, his messianic dream had failed, almost every thing was gone and he believed Germany and many of his closest followers had betrayed him. He killed himself because he had nothing left to live for