Nazi treatment of ethnic Poles in Germany proper

[Davey Boy]

To the slave or slovo General with the german name.
Your boy Willimowski liked the "Dumb Nemcies" so much that he decided to stay in Germany after the war and was associated with Werder Bremen for a long time,I faintly remember since it has been over 50 years.I yes he is the only big Pole ever to amount to anything.I still remember him saying that the great Fritz Walter was one of his Idols.
WHAT A POPOLSKI!

General Anders was Poland's greatest commander during WWII. What's your problem? So what if he was called Anders? He wasn't German. And no, I didn't pick that name for him, you tit.

Also, Wilimowski had to stay in Germany because he was seen as a traitor in Poland. He surely would've been lynched if he came back. The same thing happened to many Poles; they were used by the Nazis and then seen as traitors in their own land. Tragic, I know.

Btw, Franz Beckenbauer and Jurgen Klinsmann were always my idols, and so what?

[Davey Boy]

he puts the to try and cover up the fact that he is serious in his hatred of Germans

No Mikey, I was just giving you a little nugget of trivia, which some could translate as animosity towards our German friends. But the fact is, that's what Germans are called in Slavic countries, Niemcy. And it means "dumb ones". Look it up in a dictionary.

[Davey Boy]

Michael,

"During the DDR period, the Wends were treated officially as a national minority, and their language and culture received official support. However, that seems to have been purely a propaganda exercise that disappeared with the disappearance of its sponsors."

No, you're wrong. The Sorbs, or Serbi as they call themselves (which basically means Serbs), get more financial support from the EU than they ever did from the DDR. Many of them, however, are bitter, because German industry has been given a free hand on their territory. During the last few years, their land has turned into a moonscape thanks to all the digging for natural minerals. Many Sorbs complain to Poles about this, showing us how badly they're treated by the Germans.

In fact, the relations between Poles and Sorbs are at an all time high. There are Polish footballers playing for the Cottbus team in the Bundesliga, for example, and they're big stars over there. From what I've heard, Radoslaw Kaluzny, the Poland midfielder, is adored by the Sorb kids.

Ineteresting stuff, because during the Communist years, Poles and Sorbs had very little contact.

[Davey Boy]

P.S. Michael,

"Some of these former Wehrmacht men turned Polish were sent with the Polish Army units to Scotland for training. There, in the training camps, they encountered a number of Polish Jews who were likewise members of the Anders Army, having been in exile in the Soviet Union, and permitted to join the Army when it was formed after the German invasion. The former Wehrmacht men, having learned the correct attitude to Jews from their German trainers, were understandably upset at finding themselves compelled to serve in the same units as members of that nationality, and took appropriate action. The issue was hushed up at the time; the concept of members of the Polish Army fighting and killing each other on British soil was not one considered fit for public consumption."

I think you're digging around for some tabloid headlines or something. Hey, maybe a Jew and a former Wehrmacht soldier got into a scuffle, and someone got killed? Why not? But I doubt it was a big issue. Firstly, there were very few Jews in the Anders army. Secondly, hard nosed Nazis weren't taken into the Polish army. Thirdly, my grandad's brother was stationed in Scotland, where he stayed and where his family now lives, and he never mentiond any of this to me. And I'm sure he would've if he knew anything about it, because he liked to talk after a few drinks.

[mike262752]

he puts the to try and cover up the fact that he is serious in his hatred of Germans

No Mikey, I was just giving you a little nugget of trivia, which some could translate as animosity towards our German friends. But the fact is, that's what Germans are called in Slavic countries, Niemcy. And it means "dumb ones". Look it up in a dictionary.

id rather not

[michael mills]

"General Anders" wrote:

Thirdly, my grandad's brother was stationed in Scotland, where he stayed and where his family now lives, and he never mentiond any of this to me. And I'm sure he would've if he knew anything about it, because he liked to talk after a few drinks.

After giving the matter some considerable thought, I have come to the conclusion that the findings of the historian Bernard Wasserstein are probably more reliable than the well-lubricated reminiscences of "General Anders's" great-uncle. I suggest reading the book by him that I referred to.

[formerly known as HETMAN]

"General Anders" wrote:

Thirdly, my grandad's brother was stationed in Scotland, where he stayed and where his family now lives, and he never mentiond any of this to me. And I'm sure he would've if he knew anything about it, because he liked to talk after a few drinks.

After giving the matter some considerable thought, I have come to the conclusion that the findings of the historian Bernard Wasserstein are probably more reliable than the well-lubricated reminiscences of "General Anders's" great-uncle. I suggest reading the book by him that I referred to.

Touche! Great reply. I love sarcasm.

Btw, You'll be happy to know that I changed my nick. It'll save you from having to write those pesky quotation marks around General Anders every time you reply to me.

[Karl]

Welcome to the forum, “HETMAN”.

[Dan]

Thanks for the good info, Michael.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

when Germany was the foothold of the Roman Empire?

"Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire" - Voltaire wrote this and he was correct.

This was the most feudally-fragmented state in Europe without any real power of the emperor over feudal dukes.

French kings managed to overcome feudal lords and unite the country again. Emperors never did.

Btw - "Rex est imperator in regno suo" - emperors had no any advantage over other monarchs of Europe.

[Timmy]

Ethnic Poles were still open to German citizenship under the Third Reich. The Poles were used as an example of an ethnic minority that were racially related to the Germans themselves and were thus able to have German citizenship.

After the Nuremberg Laws came in this was said:

A member of any minority group demonstrates his ability to serve the German Reich when, without surrendering membership in his own specific Volk group, he loyally carries out his civil duties to the Reich, such as service in the armed forces, etc. Reich citizenship is, therefore, open to racially related groups living in Germany, such as Poles, Danes, and others. It is an altogether different matter with German nationals of alien blood and race. They do not fulfill the blood prerequisites for Reich citizenship. The Jews, who constitute an alien body among all European peoples, are especially characterized by racial foreignness. Jews, therefore, cannot be seen as being fit for service to the German Volk and Reich. Hence, they must necessarily remain excluded from Reich citizenship.

This can be found in the book “Non-Germans” Under The Third Reich by Diemut Majer, p.625 as a reference to some text within the book. Majer also notes though that the usage of Poles caused some controversy as before in 1933 H. Nicolai classified the Poles to be a "social group of alien people" and should be put under "subject to a special status". Although this never did come about and Poles were eligible for German citizenship.

It's rather confusing that the Nazis who classified ethnic Poles as Untermenschen ("subhumans") still allowed them to be citizens of the German Reich and were "equal" to the Germans for rights etc. This was completely different when outside of the Reich borders.

Political thoughts played a massive part on the policy towards Poles (e.g the General Government vs Annexed Eastern Territories treatment of the Poles differed massively with the latter being the more extreme), in the Annexed Eastern Territories not just the ethnic Poles living there but all non-Germans lost their citizenship and were placed under a "protected special subject status".

The Nazis never came up with a definitive definition of who was a "Pole", this extremely annoyed Himmler and proved to be very difficult regarding the racial theories of splitting up Germans and non-Germans in the annexed areas such as Poles in such places like public transport and so forth.

Ethnic Poles that were labourers for Germany were also forbidden to have sexual relations with Germans and were subject to the death penalty if it was a male as it was considered by the Penal Code to be parallel with "race defilement" (sec. 176, no.3, Penal Code) as anti-German behaviour with the justification lying as it was seen as an "attack on the honour of German womanhood" and "an action detrimental to the sovereignty of the German Reich and the good name of the German people".

The courts also applied even if the German woman initiated such an action.

However as again we see again in Nazi terminology this was not just limited to just ethnic Poles but all non-German offenders who had sexual relations with a German woman, whether they were an Aryan or not.

Many Nazi leaders within the districts were constantly complaining about the amount of mixed German-Polish relationships and/or marriages in the areas, especially in areas that have changed the borders over the years (e.g parts of Silesia). The concept of Germanization caused problems for the Nazis with the peoples such as the Kashubians.

Do a little bit of digging and you'll be surprised at how many Nazis had obvious Polish ancestry, many tried to conceal this but many were open about it.

[4thskorpion]

Yet, after the invasion of Poland the Poles were regarded as "racial foes" in propaganda and any relations between Germans and Poles was explicitly forbidden, despite Poles being in principle regarded as Aryans. During the war, thousands of Polish men lost their lives for "forbidden relations" with German women, the death penalty was the result of such a relation, unless Himmler deemed the Polish man capable of Germanization. German women were marched through their local town with a card around their neck with signs such as "Pole lover" and had their head shaved. German men and Polish women were placed into concentration camps for their "forbidden relations". Even sending a letter to a Pole could land you into a concentration camp.

The racial discrimination of Poles was codified in the so-called Polish Decrees (German: Polenerlasse) and exemplified in the anti-Polish poster below published by Volksbund für das Deutschtum im Ausland (Association for 'Germanness' abroad) Gauverband Danzig Westpreußen (Association of the “shire or county”, Gdansk, West Prussia)

Anti-Polish_poster.jpg (240.55 KiB) Viewed 1008 times

Poster text translation:

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The VdA badge = Verein für das Deutschtum im Ausland (Association for Germanness abroad)


Our Statement Regarding the Question of the Poles within the Reich

The Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German Police has decreed by order of Reichsmarschall Göring and others, that all male and female workers of Polish descent are at all times bound to visibly display on the right hand side of the chest on each piece of clothing the cloth badge pictured on the right in its actual size. The badge is to be permanently sown on.



The German people experience today the formation of its Volksreich (idea of having all German speaking people within the boundaries of one country) and realize that in future there will be foreign elements within its lebensraum (space to live). It is evident that the use of Polish workers on the land and in the factories in the whole Reich has led to some questions arising regarding national identity. The Volksreich can only last forever, if every German acts conscious of his nationality and if he can cope with all these questions by himself. Laws can do no more than provide rules that support coexistence with the non-Germans. Most important of all is the intuitive, confident attitude of each individual. It is therefore of the utmost importance to alert the whole nation to the dangers which arise when coexisting with non-Germans.

Therefore it is necessary to take every opportunity to enlighten and to keep pointing out the atrocities that the Polish people committed towards our ethnic Germans as well as to ask for caution towards the Polish workers.

German people! Never forget that it was the atrocities of the Polish that forced the Führer to protect our German people with his armed forces.

September 1939 claimed the lives of 58,000 ethnic Germans in Poland. There is no atrocity which was not committed during this time: Withholding food for days, stick blows, blows with rifle butts, executions without reason, blinding of people and rape. German people were caused suffering in Polish prisons which had to be thought up by sub-humans with animalistic traits. Men, women and children, defenceless old and sick people were tortured to death during their forced removal. A young person was doused with petrol and burnt in an oven, a locomotive drove into the back of a carriage full of displaced people. There are countless examples of this kind.

Members of that nation have come here as farm workers and factory workers and as prisoners of war, because their manpower must not be wasted and must therefore be used for the construction of the Reich. Anyone, who has dealings with them in an official or professional capacity, must realize that the hatred of the Poles is stronger today than ever and that the Poles have much more experience in the Volkstumskampf (ethnic struggle) than the Germans and that they still believe in building a new, larger Poland with the aid of the enemy powers.

The submissiveness shown by Poles towards Germans is deceitful. Their friendly manner is put on. Caution should be exercised everywhere, so as not to abet the banding together of Poles and possible spy activity.

There is no common ground whatsoever between Germans and Poles.

German Citizen, be proud and remember what the Polish people did to you! If someone approaches you and tells you his Pole was a decent person, retort like this: Nowadays everyone knows a decent Pole, like everyone used to know a decent Jew!

The German Volksgemeinschaft (community of the people) is at stake:

Fellow German, be especially careful not to establish relations due to the shared religion within the areas which are mainly Catholic. It is wrong to assume that the Poles who constantly greet others with: “Praised be Jesus Christ” are decent people and to reply with: “For ever and ever, amen.”

German Citizen! The Pole is never your comrade!

His position is below that of any fellow German on your farm or in your factory. Be just, as you always are as a German, but be constantly aware that you are a member of the Herrenvolk (the master race). The German army is fighting for peace in Europe. You, Fellow German, are responsible for peace in the new, larger Germany and you have to win every nationality-related trial of strength, which is determined by the people of different nationalities living together.

Volksbund für das Deutschtum im Ausland (Association for 'Germanness' abroad)
Gauverband Danzig Westpreußen (Association of the “shire or county”, Gdansk, West Prussia)

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Arbeitsbuch_Fur_Auslander_1942.jpg (223.66 KiB) Viewed 1008 times

[michael mills]

The racial discrimination of Poles was codified in the so-called Polish Decrees (German: Polenerlasse) and exemplified in the anti-Polish poster below published by Volksbund für das Deutschtum im Ausland (Association for 'Germanness' abroad) Gauverband Danzig Westpreußen (Association of the “shire or county”, Gdansk, West Prussia)

The "Polenerlasse" were a product of the state of war between Germany and Poland, not of National Socialist racial theories. Thus, before the war, there were no German decrees discriminating against ethnic Poles. For example, before the outbreak of war, ethnic Polish citizens of Germany had the full rights of citizenship, since they were considered to be of kindred blood ("artverwandten Blutes"); the only anti-Polish actions were against organisations or associations considered to be subversive.

In that respect, the "Polenerlasse" were similar to the non-fraternisation decrees issued by the Allied military authorities at the beginning of the occupation of Germany in 1945. Those decrees were of course a result of the state of war between Germany and the Allies, not of any pre-existing official racial prejudice against Germans in the Allied countries.

There is no common ground whatsoever between Germans and Poles.

German Citizen! The Pole is never your comrade!

Those concepts were originally part of Polish nationalist propaganda, and were simply borrowed by the Germans.

For example, the warning "The Pole is never your comrade" is obviously a reversal of the traditional Polish saying "Jak swiat swiatem, nie bedzie niemiec polakowi bratem" (= as long as the World exists, the German will never be brother to the Pole).

[Halibutt]

Those concepts were originally part of Polish nationalist propaganda, and were simply borrowed by the Germans.

For example, the warning "The Pole is never your comrade" is obviously a reversal of the traditional Polish saying "Jak swiat swiatem, nie bedzie niemiec polakowi bratem" (= as long as the World exists, the German will never be brother to the Pole).

Sorry mate, but this one is simply hillarious. Sure, in the 19th century during the Kulturkampf there was a fair share of propaganda on both sides as the class conflict between the privileged Germans and underprivileged Poles in German-held Greater Poland raged on. However, extending those slogans to suggest that the anti-Polish World War II policies of Nazi Germany were simply a reversal of what Poles did half a century before is a step too far.

Especially that anti-German sentiments, popular in Greater Poland for obvious reasons, were actually very weak in other parts of the country where Russia was usually the bad guy. This had its obvious effects during WWI, when Roman Dmowski and his followers hoped future Poland would rise allied to Russia while Piłsudski's socialists were hoping for some alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary. But this 19th century "conflict of nationalities" did not affect Poland of the interbellum much, and most definitely it did not affect Polish policies regarding ethnic Germans living in Poland.

Besides, the quote is not a traditional Polish saying, it's a quotation from Wacław Potocki's "Moralia", a collection of over 2100 poems written some time before 1694 (they remained unpublished until World War I, BTW, which is why they never gained any popularity in Poland; the poem is unknown to anyone here but some literature scientists). And the quotation, while nice, is taken out of context: it's a satire aimed at the king of Poland (and elector of Saxony) Augustus II the Strong, who tried to limit the liberties of the landed gentry in Poland. He is "the proud German" who "hates freedom" in the poem. Interestingly, Potocki's wife was German, so accusing him of anti-German sentiments is really not the best idea
Cheers

[michael mills]

I did not allege that German policies were the reversal of what Poles had done half a century previously.

I said that in implementing anti-Polish policies, the Germans used slogans that were a reversal of Polish anti-German slogans. Although there were certain similarities between the aims of the respective policies, ie to push out the unwanted ethnic group, the German policies imposed on Poland were far more savage and brutal than anything the Polish Government had previously done to its German minority in the inter-war period.

As for the quotation, I do not doubt that it had its origin in a 17th Century poem that nobody in Poland today knows. But it is common for lines in literature to become common sayings, used by all sorts of people who do not know their origin.

Just think of all the English-speakers who have never read a Shakespeare play but quite commonly use lines from his plays, such as "it's all Greek to me". It is apparent that the line from Potocki's poem passed into common use, and was often quoted by Polish nationalists of the anti-German, Dmowskiite variety.

In fact, I did not come across the quotation in Potocki's poem, but in a history book about Polish-German relations through the ages.