Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrendered?

[Panzerkampfwagen]

..Consider the treatment meted out to captured German officers in the Western Front. Jochen Peiper's RK was snatched off by American troops when he was captured by them

Panzermahn, it is obvious from your comments here and in other threads that you have a very distorted/biased view of the German Armed Forces in WW2 in that they were the hard done by ones and whatever they did was within reason. For that reason I am no longer repsonding to anything you post.

Oh..please , almost all of us have our own distorted views, which have been brought down to us, by our ancestors, our education systems ( depending on which country , you were born and brought up) and the effect of propoganda (both allied and axis), off course. At times, we choose to neglect these thoughts , or merely our prejudices and beliefs fail to see reason. For eg. there were millions of people in Britain (including the so called idol of Britain, Mr.Churchill) who cited crimes against Humanity against the Nazis when they were pounding Britain and murdering the jews, when they themselves had inflicted pain , oppression and torture throughout the globe for centuries, and yet they shamelessly wanted the same people to fight on their side.

Another thing of abjunct hypocrisy is that while Britain repaid America through out these years for the manpower, armaments and food it provided under the lend-lease act, it never repay or even apologize to its commonwealth. .. I hope that i have got my point across that prejudices, hypocrisy and bias of some form would be present in all of us, and all of our comments need not hold water, always, and there is no need to act so self righteous against a member. You may politely ask him to quote the source of his information and his/her views.

[David Thompson]

Let's get back on topic -- Decorations being taken away as German soldiers surrendered. Digressions about national hypocrisy aren't helpful since there's no shortage of it anywhere, and discussions on war crimes belong in the H&WC section.

[Marcus]

An off-topic post by scruffy also containing personal remarks about other members was removed following previous warnings.

/Marcus

[sfk20]

It seemed to me that there are plenty of cases where POWs were required to remove their medals during processing. Why was this? I agree that there are also instances where prisoners were allowed to keep their medals, but it seems less common. Furthermore, I suppose Göring, Keitel, Jodl, etc. having their medals removed was because of their status as war criminals. Still, I don't necessarily understand why ordinary soldiers, in most cases, had their medals taken away not by souvenir hunters but at POW processing points. Did the Germans do the same thing to allied POWs (again, as a policy rather than for souvenirs)?

[Panzermahn]

It seemed to me that there are plenty of cases where POWs were required to remove their medals during processing. Why was this? I agree that there are also instances where prisoners were allowed to keep their medals, but it seems less common. Furthermore, I suppose Göring, Keitel, Jodl, etc. having their medals removed was because of their status as war criminals. Still, I don't necessarily understand why ordinary soldiers, in most cases, had their medals taken away not by souvenir hunters but at POW processing points. Did the Germans do the same thing to allied POWs (again, as a policy rather than for souvenirs)?

Allied troops such as the British and Commonwealth as well as Americans soldiers who fought in frontline rarely wore their combat decorations into battle. The French however wore their decorations into the battle. However the Germans, as a rule, always permitted Allied POWs to keep their insignia or any decorations except for "gangster" commandos and partisans.

Here is an example of an American Army Air Corps officer, who was captured after being shot down in Germany, retaining his flight jacket "Murder Incorporated" when he goes thru POW processing

http://www.merkki.com/murderinc.htm

[Sunbury]

However the Germans, as a rule, always permitted Allied POWs to keep their insignia or any decorations except for "gangster" commandos and partisans.

Of course the Germans simply murdered any Commando's they captured from 1942 including the wounded. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 32&start=0

[Der Max]

Regarding the previously mentioned removing of parts from allied planes was common practice in the early years of the war. Later on, due to the shortage of metal, all the shot down allied planes were taken to either be melted down and used for the armsindustry (and the earlier souvenirs confiscated) or, if the planes were intact enough, these planes were used for more researchal purposes.

[BillHermann]

I always find the emotions and passion over a simple subject matter fascinating. Especially one who gets so emotional and defensive over one army and it's members having the physical element of thier award being taken away as if this physical element is paramount to stealing ones soul.

I have always felt bad for any veteran in any nation during war or at peace that has their earned medals and citations stolen but the difference is I do not pick one side and make the same act of the other army more criminal. It really doesn't matter which side stole more medals. It is a fact of war accept it, there is no real tangible evidence that I know of that states that the allies were worse. In any battle at the front or in POW possessing regardless of the rules unfortunate things can happen from the stealing of a medals, watches, pesonal items to summary executions and we all know that this happend and the Germans were no better. Stating that it is immoral is one thing, assuming that there was some great conspiracy against the Germans is another.

Simply put, losing a medal in the great scope of things is minimal as the act of bravery can never be taken away, losing ones home, family, and lively hood including all of your private possession due to theft and or destruction due to war is by far more tragic. Many families lost everything including there respect. These things are far more difficult to get back.

One final point, I can guarantee that many of the big name heroes that so many like to look up to from Joachim Peiper to Wilhelm Bittrich would have been far less emotional about losing a medal after surrender as their expirience, confidence and personalities would have accepted this as they would have seen this happen over the years in combat.

[ReinhardH]

FWIW, my father's disgust with the allied habit of taking of war souvenirs was very clear the time he told me of the prisoners his units took late in the war who's forearms were lined thick up to their elbows with wristwatches. I would think that anyone who'd ever served in any German unit that had engaged in similar corpse/prisoner robbing would not speak of the practice with such revile..

[Rob - wssob2]

One final point, I can guarantee that many of the big name heroes that so many like to look up to from Joachim Peiper to Wilhelm Bittrich would have been far less emotional about losing a medal after surrender as their expirience, confidence and personalities would have accepted this as they would have seen this happen over the years in combat.

Astute observation, Bill. I've been reading Mark Yerger's 2-volume Waffen-SS Commanders and I've known I've read at least one instance of SS officers offering their own medals for use in awards ceremonies for fellow officers when "fresh" medal wasn't available. It's not the tin and ribbon, its the sentiment that counts.

I think we have to remember that the taking of war "souvenirs" wasn't just a western Allied practice - there are many accounts from US troops captured in the Battle of the Bulge of German troops taking watches, money, cigarettes and other items. The German pilfering wasmore practical, due to wartime shortages, or perhaps the German landser didn't think a US Army regimental pin approached the coolness of an Iron Cross

[BillHermann]

FWIW, my father's disgust with the allied habit of taking of war souvenirs was very clear the time he told me of the prisoners his units took late in the war who's forearms were lined thick up to their elbows with wristwatches. I would think that anyone who'd ever served in any German unit that had engaged in similar corpse/prisoner robbing would not speak of the practice with such revile..

One persons personal disgust and anger is not a example of what the whole army's opinions were or a factual portrayal of the enemy. I can tell you that many comments from personal experiences are more from an individual's personal emotions not historical fact.

There were soldiers from all nations that pilliaged, Germans, British, American and so on. There is historical record of this on all sides. Some solders did it, others did not, some dispised theses acts, others ignored them. Some soldiers stopped these acts from happening. The Germans in the 1940s routinely stole from civilians and took trophies. The allies did as well in 1944-45..

I have the personal stories from my grandfather in WW1 and uncles in world war 2, some of whiich paint the German soldier in a very bad light and I qoute " all Germans were bad". Some of their stories are just horrific and personal opinions that generalize all Germans make the stories even worse however they are generalizing . The point is to know where these stories are comming from and that there are emotions attached.

I had heard stories from vetran family members that were equally disgusted about poor behavior and actions from the Germans and their own comrades however I know full well that there were Germans that fought with Honour.

[ReinhardH]

His squad's decent treatment of its allied prisoners ultimately turned out to be what saved dad's life after he himself became a POW after the war's end

[BillHermann]

Indeed and there are many such stories from allied prisoners that gained respect from their captors due to thier treatment of prisoners and attitudes towards the enemy.

[Michael Kenny]

If I was captured by a group of soldiers I had just been firing at and some of their comrades had been killed then the last thing I would worry about was hanging on to any personal possesions I had.
Later I might regret it. At the time it seemed unimportant.

[Tim Smith]

I wonder if it's true that Soviet soldiers did not loot German decorations, while British and American soldiers did. If it is true, I wonder why?

Maybe German decorations were not seen to be of any value in the USSR? Or perhaps hoarding looted German decorations was seen as evidence of political unreliability by the NKVD, so the soldiers may have been too scared to do it?

Or maybe taking souveneirs was not a part of Russian culture?