Did Hitler survive?

[Atrevida]

Here are the discrepancies as I checked through them this afternoon. Günsche, Linge and Misch were in Soviet hands, Kempka never.

The books of reference are:
(G) Otto Günsche, affidavit 1.7.1975 in Kempka's book.
(K) Erich Kempka, Die letzten Tage mit Adolf Hitler
(L) Heinz Linge, Bis zum Untergang
(M) Rochus Misch, Der letzte Zeuge

The Bunker Layout

(M) was in the telephone exchange close to the lobby outer doors which led into Hitler's suite. Passing through these doors into the lobby, on the far side were the doors into Hitler's study. As you went in you would see a 3-metre-long wall facing you. The sofa/divan was along the centre of this wall. To the left of the sofa was an easy chair. In front of the sofa was a long table with a vase of flowers in water.

THE DISCREPANCIES

TIME: (G) (L) and (M) agree roughly on the time being 1530 hrs.
(K) states the bodies were ready for burning at 1400 (page 95) and that they were burning between 1400 and 1930 (page 99).

THE DISCOVERY OF THE SUICIDES
(L) stated: "As I was passing the lobby doors I smelled a discharged weapon. I did not want to go in alone. I went to the conference room where some people were gathered quietly around Martin Bormann. I signalled Bormann to accompany me to Hitler's study. I opened the door and went in followed by Bormann.

(M) stated: I heard Bormann or Goebbels shouting, "Linge! Linge! Es ist soweit!" I went into the corridor, Linge came running up and shoved me aside. He put his ear to the lobby door, then he and Günsche opened the door and went to the study doors. They opened these, I followed them inside and glanced around."

(G) wrote: "Bormann, Linge and I opened the double doors to Hitler's suite at 1530 hrs."

(K) was not present.


SEEING THE BODIES

All four are agreed that Eva Hitler was sitting on the sofa with her legs drawn up, her head inclined towards Hitler, who was nearer the left wall as you go in.

(L) "Adolf Hitler and Eva were seated on the sofa dead- Hitler's head was inclined towards the wall, there was blood on the carpet near the sofa."

(M) I do not remember if Hitler was on the sofa or in the easy chair near it. His eyes were open and staring. His head had fallen forward slightly. I saw no blood."

(G) "Hitler was in the easy chair against the left wall beside the sofa. He had slumped and hung over the right arm of the chair. His head was inclined to the side, blood was dripping from his right temple and a pool of blood had formed on the carpet and floor."

(K) Hitler had fallen on to the table top (meaning he must have been on the sofa) and in falling forward had knocked over the vase on the table, splashing his dead wife."

CARRYING OUT THE BODIES

(G) abstained from describing this aspect.

(M) "I saw that Hitler's body had been laid out on the study floor. Linge, Günsche, Kempka and an RSD man wrapped him in a grey blanket and carried him past me"

(K) "Dr Stumpfegger and Linge carried out Hitler's body in a dark field blanket. Martin Bormann followed carrying Eva. Kempka took over carrying Eva's body. It was wet from the water spilt from the overturned vase. Meanwhile Stumpfegger and Linge placed the body of Hitler three metres in front of the bunker exit. Günsche and I (Kempka) laid Eva beside him."

(L) "When Bormann went out leaving me alone I spread out the blankets for the two corpses, laid the bodies on them and wrapped them. Eva Hitler was carried out first by Bormann and Kempka. We carried Hitler up to the bunker door and laid him in a small depression beside Eva's body."

IN CONCLUSION

One of the four disputes the time of the suicides by up to two hours. All disagree on who discovered that the suicides had occurred, who alerted whom, and who went in, while the fourth man claimed he was already helping burn the bodies. Two of the four think that Hitler was on the sofa, one thinks he was in the easy chair, the fourth "can't remember".

One could see Hitler's head with his eyes open and glazed. One could not see the eyes because the head was towards the wall. Another could not see the eyes because the head was resting on the table top. Three saw blood on the carpet, the fourth said there was no blood on the carpet.

Dr Stumpfegger and Linge carried up Hitler's body. Bormann, later Kempka, followed with Eva. Dr Stumpfegger and Linge placed Hitler's body in front of the bunker exit. Then up came Günsche and Kempka to lay Eva beside him.

But Linge says that Eva was carried out first and then he followed with the body of the Führer. He then laid Hitler beside Eva who was, as will be remembered, herself laid beside Hitler.

Now what this looks like to me is that maybe the Soviets, in league with all these SS men, got their heads together and, all of them knowing what really happened in the bunker, cooked up this farce to see how people would run with it. All you have actually got to rely on is the word of four SS men who swore to their Führer Adolf Hitler "Obedience unto Death".

[Annelie]

Now what this looks like to me is that maybe the Soviets, in league with all these SS men, got their heads together and, all of them knowing what really happened in the bunker, cooked up this farce to see how people would run with it. All you have actually got to rely on is the word of four SS men who swore to their Führer Adolf Hitler "Obedience unto Death".

Don't agree with you. what reasonable explanation would they have for wanted to do that together?
Am sure they didn't do it to see how people would run with it? Those times didn't warrant that kind
of thinking?

[phylo_roadking]

All you have actually got to rely on is the word of four SS men who swore to their Führer Adolf Hitler "Obedience unto Death".

...and who was, after all...DEAD - and so all bets were off!

You're forgetting Linge's later statement repudiating all his involvement in wrapping/moving/buring the bodies

Now what this looks like to me is that maybe the Soviets, in league with all these SS men, got their heads together and, all of them knowing what really happened in the bunker, cooked up this farce to see how people would run with it.

You REALLY think SMERSH of all groups would do anything "in league with" SS officers?

You're forgetting that there were TWO Soviet conclusions on the events of Hitler's death...the 1945 version...and the 1947 version once Stalin became suspicious of the original findings and details and sent SMERSH back to Berlin to repeat all the investigation! This later version had to copperfasten the earlier finding...so the evidence of people like Linge, after 18 months of repeated interrogation, had to not only be incontrovertible they ALSO had to agree fully with the earlier findings.

[BillHermann]

Ridiculous, trying soft through historical evidence to find discrepancies to build a case that he survived.

Few points to consider.

1. Even with current cases stories rarely match
2. The chaos of the bunker with the stress and fear would have made it worse

Stories rarely match up, and in these circumstances it would have been worse.

[Penn44]

Whereas previously I was prepared to accept that Hitler died in the bunker, through translating for publication the various accounts of persons present at the time of the alleged suicides I notice a large number of discrepancies. Times of day, who carried out what body and in what order, where the bodyguard and adjutants were stationed and what they did, and what other witnesses thought they did, errors in where Hitler and Eva were sitting and so forth.

Although there are some who are tempted to make a huge leap in logic, the fact that there are discrepancies in the account of Hitler's suicide does not prove that he escaped. It only proves that there are discrepancies in the story.

Penn44

.

[BillHermann]

Indeed discrepancies,

There are small gaps in the suicide event where there is little to no evidence that he survived. The believers site these inconsistent dents to create a story that does not have any but a gaping valley.

[little grey rabbit]

It proves nothing! Nothing I say!

Apparently Lieut Luth was tragically shot by a sentry on May 13 1945 when returning to barracks drunk and did not respond to a challenge.

So he couldn't have been piloting a sub anywhere, could he?

[Halfdan S.]

There's nothing that indicates that Lüth was drunk - where do you get this info from?

[little grey rabbit]

Fair enough, my source only says it was likely explanation
http://www.uboat.net/men/luth.htm

But only a few days after the war ended, he died in an unfortunate accident. Kapitän zur See Wolfgang Lüth was shot on 13 May, 1945, by a German sentry when he failed to identify himself or give the password. The lucky shot, fired by the sentry at a target he could not even see in the darkness, struck Lüth in the head, killing him instantly.

There has been much speculation as to why he did not respond to the sentry's challenge. Some have suggested it was deliberate suicide, others that Lüth responded but the sentry failed to hear him. The most likely explanation is that he was drunk, exhausted, or otherwise distracted as he made his way across the grounds of the Marineschule shortly after midnight on the fourth day after Germany's surrender.

and

Two days after his death, Lüth received the last state funeral of the Third Reich. Six U-boat officers decorated with the Knights Cross formed the honor guard, and Dönitz spoke the last words. To this day, a memorial stone serves to preserve the memory of this outstanding U-boat officer.

Who says the Nazis didn't have a sense of humor?

[phylo_roadking]

The fourth day after Germany's surrender???? Oh he could easily have been to Argentina and back again by then!

[little grey rabbit]

Well spotted, phylo. Of course possibly a few days after the surrender some bright spark thought: "How are we going to account for Luth's disappearance? How about we hold a fake funeral?"

Marshall Zhukov's memoirs also hold pertinent information: p622-623

Around five in the morning General Sokolovsky telephoned and reported on his first conversation with General Krebs.
"The Germans have something up their sleeve", he said. "Krebs claims he isn't authorized to make a decision on unconditional surrender. According to him, only the new German government headed by Doenitz can do that.
"Krebs is trying to arrange a cease-fire in order to get the members of the Doenitz Government together in Berlin. I think we should tell them to go to hell if they don't agree to unconditional surrender at once."
"Right Vasili Danilovich," I answered. "Tell Krebs that if Goebbels and Bormann don't agree to unconditional surrender before 10 o'clock, we'll deal them such a blow it will knock all ideas of resistance out of their heads. Let the Hitlerites think of the senseless sacrifices of the German people and remember their personal responsibility for their insane actions."
No reply from Goebbels and Bormann was received at the appointed time.
At 10:40 our artillery opened up with all its might against the remnants of the special defence sector in the centre of the city. At 18:00 Sokolovsky reported that the German leaders had sent a truce envoy. He said Goebbels and Bormann had rejected our demand for unconditional surrender.
In answer to that, at 18:30 the last storm of the central part of the city, where the Imperial Chancellery was and where the last of the Hitlerites had dug in, began with unprecedented force.
I do not remember the exact time, but as soon as dusk fell I had a call from the commander of the 3rd Army, General VI Kuznetsov, who reported in an excited voice:
"Just now at the positions held by the 52 Guards Division about 20 German tanks broke through and set off at high speed for the north-western suburbs of the city."
It was clear that somebody was making off from Berlin.
This cause the most pleasant conjectures. Somebody even said the tanks that had broken through were taking Hitler, Goebbels and Bormann out of Berlin.
The troops were immediately alerted so that no a soul should leave the Berlin area. I immediately ordered Commander F I Perkhorovich of the 47th Army, Commander P A Belov of the 61st Army and Commander Poplawski of the 1st Polish Army, to seal off all the roads and passages to the west and north-west. Commander of the 2nd Guards Tank Army, General S I Bogdanov, and Army Commander General V I Kuznetsov were ordered immediately to organize pursuit in all directions, to find and destroy the runaway tanks.
At dawn on May 2 the tanks were discovered 15 kilometers north-west of Berlin and were quickly destroyed by our tankmen. Some of the tanks burned out; the others were knocked to pieces. Among the dead crews of the German tanks there were no Nazi chiefs. The remains in the burned tanks could not be identified.
On May 2 late at night [means early morning], at 1:50, the radiostation of the Berlin Defence Headquarters broadcast several times in German and Russian: "We are sending our truce envoys to the Bismarckstrasse Bridge. WE are suspending hositilities."

At 6:30 am General Weidling surrendered. Zhukov goes on to explain he initially doubted Hitler's death but does not hold this view any longer

Basically it seems to me that Hitler "committed suicide" when it became clear he could neither throw back the Russians from Berlin or be accepted as a negotiating partner. So then Goebbels had a go, suggesting that he and Bormann fly to Ploen to form an anti-Western alliance. He was rebuffed, so he "committed suicide" also.
They then made a break-out with a small tank force (with Hitler too, if he had not already left) and made rendezvous at an airstrip NW of Berlin with aircraft from Denmark. Once they were safely evacuated, Weidling announced the truce preliminary to unconditional surrender.

[BillHermann]

There were witnesses to Goebbel's suicide, his body and his wife's body were found partially burned and Martin Bormann remains were found near the Lehrter Bahnhof. there was DNA testing and it was confirmed to be him.

Martin Bormanns break out faiiled and there were witnesses.

Again Hitler was too ill and too proud to leave. The concept of Hitler running to safety is absurd. The idea of him leaving the centre of Berlin in a fighting breakout is ridiculous. Any Soviet evidence or questions about his survival are simply to do with the chaos of the battle and the paranoia under Stalin. Any other suggestions that counter the official records are fictional.

[little grey rabbit]

Indeed and there were witnesses to Lieutenant Luth's being shot by a sentry. But possibly these witnesses weren't telling the truth. For example one of witnesses who claimed to have recognised the Goebbels' children also said they were jumbled in with a number of other children and a medical professor friend accompanying him said patients at the Charite had been thrown into the famous bomb crater.

This from an interrogation of Hans Fritzsche in 1948

.Q. When you went to the bunker, were there any bodies strewn about in the yard?
A. They were not strewn about so much. They had been carried into a bomb crater.
Q. How many would you say were there?
A. About fifteen.
Q. They would represent soldiers and some civilians?
A. Yes, soldiers, civilians, young girls. I actually couldn't identify any of them but Professor Hasse told me later that he recognized some patients of his hospital.
Q. Was he called upon to identify them for the Russians?
A. Yes, they asked both of us.
......
Q. Were the bodies of all the children there?
A. Yes, in the cellar a few meters away.
Q Six of them?
A. There were more than six, because there were the bodies of other children, strange children, there too as well as the body of a servant whom I hadn't seen before.
Q. Well, were the other children also from the bunker?
A. I don't know. There were altogether eight children, six of which were Goebbels' children and the corpses of a woman was there too whom I didn't know

It looks like they were just throwing as many bodies around they could and choosing the best fit.

Anyway - did the Allies find the passenger submarine that was being built for his escape should he have chosen that option? Allan Dulles also reported on this plan in his dispatches from Bern. If not, where did it go and who was in it?

[BillHermann]

You are so far out to lunch, one statement regarding bodies is not evidence. You are grasping for straws. Something tells me if this was any other story with this type of evidence you would not be agreeing with it. But since its Hitler it is kosher to you.

Don't read stories from tabloids as they are only there for entertainment.

[little grey rabbit]

You are so far out to lunch, one statement regarding bodies is not evidence.

Actually that is precisely what it is. You meant it is not definitive proof.

There are plenty of witnesses who say Hitler was in Argentina and witnesses who say that he and Goebbels landed there. So you are cherrypicking the witnesses you acknowledge to suit your case.
I am saying some witnesses lied from loyalty, others were either partially or fully fooled. Still others may have had no incentive to speak out and plenty of incentives to keep quiet.
In other words there are convincing motives for all subset of witnesses you are prepared to admit. And while I could find equally find motives for the witnesses you refuse to acknowledge, I think the balance of probabilities favor them.

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