Did Hitler survive?

[BillHermann]

There is no balance in your hypothesis, you are dreaming of fiction.

[tyrodtom]

Take that letter and try to match it up to the geography of Argentina, and you'll find some gaping inconsistencies.

[mtobler]

The hardcore skepticist would definitely take a scientific approach to this matter and insist on forensic evidence to clarify his death once and for all

[phylo_roadking]

Like the dental forensic evidence? Been done.

To be fair...

The hardcore skepticist would definitely take a scientific approach to this matter and insist on forensic evidence to clarify his death once and for all

...while all the time wearing a tinfoil hat

[mtobler]

You're right Phylo, dental records were compared to video footage and positively identified to be his. But to be certain we will have to wait until a time travel device is invented to make the ultimate comparison


EDIT: Sorry, I should say his jawbone was compared to video footage.

[little grey rabbit]

Like the dental forensic evidence? Been done.

I think there is no doubt that the teeth in the possession of the Russians matches the x-ray located in 1945. But whether that x-ray actually represents Hitler's teeth is not certain to me. If you go through the documents relating to Blashke's testimony you will see he only compiled his reconstruction of Hitler's dental history with that (or those) x-ray[s]. There are, I believe, internal contradictions with this testimony, at one point Blashke saying Hitler was a model patient and after his first visit he hardly needed any work at all - which is scarcely consistent with the decayed mess of the x-rays.

In short, the dental forensic work is excellent - but it falls apart if they aren't working off the correct x-rays. Curiously, there is a rather bad film that explores this type of issue: The Man In The Glass Booth.

[BillHermann]

You are grasping, working hard at but grasping.

A fleeing Hitler would have been scared but physically able. Hitler was proud, stubborn and physically and mentally sick.

Two things about the fan fiction surrounding his escape the Hitler and the Soviests got what they wanted. Hitler got immortality with his death by people who want to keep him alive and the Soviets post war got the west and others chasing him. Their legacy lives through ignorance.

[J. Duncan]

Here is yet another book coming out questioning Hitler's death by a certain PhD Corsi.

http://www.amazon.com/Hunting-Hitler-Sc ... 18&sr=1-26

I should add this book to this other thread, which discusses the "escape" literature:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=199903

[phylo_roadking]

I think there is no doubt that the teeth in the possession of the Russians matches the x-ray located in 1945. But whether that x-ray actually represents Hitler's teeth is not certain to me. If you go through the documents relating to Blashke's testimony you will see he only compiled his reconstruction of Hitler's dental history with that (or those) x-ray[s]. There are, I believe, internal contradictions with this testimony, at one point Blashke saying Hitler was a model patient and after his first visit he hardly needed any work at all - which is scarcely consistent with the decayed mess of the x-rays.

There were no x-rays located in 1945. When SMERSH went to Blashke's office, as opposed to the consulting room he had in the Chancellery, they had avnished for posterity.Blashke did the reconstu=ructions for the ALLIES on his own memory and his written records - in those days (and even now) dentists keep written records/drawn illustrations of patients' teeth and their condition as well as x-rays - never herd your own dentist calling out details to his dental nurse on a first/periodic consultation???

HOWEVER -

In short, the dental forensic work is excellent - but it falls apart if they aren't working off the correct x-rays.

There is indeed a COMPLETE and verifiable set of full cranial - including ALL dental work - x-rays for comparison - the ones used by Mark Benecke in 2003-5....the ones taken in late 1944 when Hitler was complaining of continuing migraines after the July 20th bomb plot And they have been held for the last seven decades by the German government.

For confirmation, they display several features including the cut into the jawbone that were unique to Hitler and his treatment by Blashke for priodontal disease...and match exactly the various features seen on the dentalwork held in the KGB museum. There's no doubt that what dentalwork the Russians have chosen to make available so far for examination belong to Hitler; and we ALSO know that the said dentalwork was removed from the recovered corpse by the SMERSH autopsy team the day after the body and taken to Kathe Hausmann for her to examine. There is - in modern jurisprudence terms - no break in the chain of evidence fron the corpse to the museum in respect of the dentalwork, it is all accounted for.

[little grey rabbit]

There were no x-rays located in 1945. When SMERSH went to Blashke's office, as opposed to the consulting room he had in the Chancellery, they had avnished for posterity.Blashke did the reconstu=ructions for the ALLIES on his own memory and his written records

Well, I have no reason to think the US officer who compiled the report in 1945 was lying when he said Blashke had the xrays and every reason to think you are not very well informed. And not just the X-rays, he was also given some article that had appeared discussing the teeth as found by the Russians.

I understand the defensiveness though, the teeth is your ace of trumps. Fortunately, if anyone is genuinely interested there is something that can put the matter beyond doubt - indeed, a test that would already would have been done if the authorities were sincere about their belief in the identity of the jawbone. When the skull fragment was tested it was found not to belong to Hitler.

So why not test the jawbone - it is straightforward nowadays to test bones and teeth for mitochondrial DNA and a journalist has collected samples from relatives of Hitler through the maternal line to build up an accurate mitochondrial DNA profile of Hitler (with somewhat surprising results).

So test one of the teeth for DNA and if it proves to be Jewish, it is probably Hitlers
That is the true forensic test.

[phylo_roadking]

Well, I have no reason to think the US officer who compiled the report in 1945 was lying when he said Blashke had the xrays and every reason to think you are not very well informed. And not just the X-rays, he was also given some article that had appeared discussing the teeth as found by the Russians.

Perhaps you could provide a link to this "report"? The only report *I* know regarding Blashke's reconstruction of Hitler's plate is "United States Forces in the European Theater", Military Intelligence Service Center, Final Interrogation Report no. 31 (O1-FIR
No. 31), "Hitler's Teeth" (7 pages and annexes), 5 February 1946....and last time I heard anything about it, it was still classified. Has that status changed? A copy of this document is held in the William Russell Philp Collection, Hoover Institution Archives, Stanford University, Stanford, California...and was STILL classified (according to Ronald Bulatoff, archival specialist at
the Hoover Institution Archives) when mark benecke claims to have seen it at the time of his forensice dental examination of the platework. So although his article on his website says

"The reports of Hitler's dentist, Blaschke (who had formerly studied in the U.S.), and other witnesses clearly show that the teeth in that little cigar box must indeed be the Fuehrer's (see Figure 5)...."

...that's why he had to use the German government-held xrays - because he didn't really have access to the classified Pentagon report

So why not test the jawbone - it is straightforward nowadays to test bones and teeth for mitochondrial DNA and a journalist has collected samples from relatives of Hitler through the maternal line to build up an accurate mitochondrial DNA profile of Hitler (with somewhat surprising results).

I don't think you realise how "chain of evidence" works as a legal principle. When Kathe Hausemann was shown the jawbone and plate they were together, and photographs exist in the Soviet file of both items together as of the days of the autopsy - pics taken during the autopsy IIRC. In all honesty, if you read more on the conditions that the items Benecke did get to see were kept - the custodians may simply no longer have it. The paranoid tyrant who was interested in them is long gone - so therefore was the desire...the need...to keep them all and keep them accounted for.

[little grey rabbit]

Perhaps you could provide a link to this "report"? The only report *I* know regarding Blashke's reconstruction of Hitler's plate is "United States Forces in the European Theater", Military Intelligence Service Center, Final Interrogation Report no. 31 (O1-FIR
No. 31), "Hitler's Teeth" (7 pages and annexes), 5 February 1946....and last time I heard anything about it, it was still classified. Has that status changed? A copy of this document is held in the William Russell Philp Collection, Hoover Institution Archives, Stanford University, Stanford, California...and was STILL classified (according to Ronald Bulatoff, archival specialist at
the Hoover Institution Archives) when mark benecke claims to have seen it at the time of his forensice dental examination of the platework.

Well I have seen and read a report that matches that description and has been declassified for yonks (can Universities hold classified files? They can place restrictions on access to files for privacy reasons, but in Australia they can't hold truly classified files ). Of course maybe there are two reports, a classified version and a declassified version.

But since it is not the particular source I am using, it is beside the point.
My source is the Blaschke file at NARA found here
http://research.archives.gov/description/6241701

Specifically it says on page 3

The description of Hitler's teeth was made by Blaschke with the aid of X-ray pictures of Hitler's head taken on 19 Sep 44

This report was dated 5 Feb 1946.

I don't think you realise how "chain of evidence" works as a legal principle. When Kathe Hausemann was shown the jawbone and plate they were together, and photographs exist in the Soviet file of both items together as of the days of the autopsy - pics taken during the autopsy IIRC.

Well, I am a historian, not a lawyer. OJ Simpson is innocent as a matter of legal principle.
I am aware of Kathe Hausemann, I am also aware of claims that she was raped by the NKVD during the process of interrogation and suffered a nervous breakdown.

While that may not necessarily invalidate her testimony, if a situation where Nazi elements were trying to protect their Fuehrer I see nothing improbable that they may have tried to "assist" the Russians by providing them with an X-ray and helping them locate the dental assistant who was left in no doubt what it was in the interest of her and her family to say.

Happily, modern technology means the question can be resolved beyond doubt. The Russians allowed a fragment of skull to be DNA tested - it failed, they won't allow the teeth to be DNA tested because they know it will fail also.

If I may be of assistance here - just locate the grave of descendent on the maternal line of Adolf Hitler's mother, exhume the body and extract one of the teeth. Give that tooth to the Russians who can solemnly pass it along to be DNA tested and then you are done and dusted.

[phylo_roadking]

That reads as being Blashke's interrogation notes rather than the file I was talking about. But please note something...

Specifically it says on page 3
The description of Hitler's teeth was made by Blaschke with the aid of X-ray pictures of Hitler's head taken on 19 Sep 44

Those aren't Hitler's dental x-rays; there were several more sets of DENTAL x-rays taken after that date, including a set in early April....the ones that were not to be found when the SMERSH team searched Blashke's office in the K-Damm on the 10th of May....

Those are the x-rays I mentioned earlier, the full cranial MEDICAL X-rays from September 1944 that Mark Benecke used in 2003.

I am aware of Kathe Hausemann, I am also aware of claims that she was raped by the NKVD during the process of interrogation and suffered a nervous breakdown

Remember that she was imprisoned TWICE; the second time was after some inconsistencies threw her evidence into question...in Stalin's eyes The FIRST time, however, she cooperated willingly it would appear and was treated as well as any internee.

While that may not necessarily invalidate her testimony, if a situation where Nazi elements were trying to protect their Fuehrer I see nothing improbable that they may have tried to "assist" the Russians by providing them with an X-ray and helping them locate the dental assistant who was left in no doubt what it was in the interest of her and her family to say.

You seem not to be very aware that the wartime Allies were by now COMPETING on all this; the Soviets didn't get the Spetember 1944 x-rays, the Americans did. The Soviets didn't get ANY x-rays of any dental or cranial work. And neither party shared access to their particular internees either; they were each very much racing to get their ""definitive" story out there.

The Russians allowed a fragment of skull to be DNA tested - it failed, they won't allow the teeth to be DNA tested because they know it will fail also.

But that is EXACTLY where chain of evidence comes in; the lower jawbone and teeth were photographed together at the autopsy, and both together were taken to Kathe Hausemann before she "volunteered" to assist SMERSH further in their investigations They were known to be/photographed together in Soviet hands. Nearly seventy years of neglect has meant they're probably not together NOW...but there were at the important time - immediately after Hitler's death and the recovery of his body.

[little grey rabbit]

You seem not to be very aware that the wartime Allies were by now COMPETING on all this;

LOL, they were competing, but not in the way you appear to be suggesting

As the reemergence of Hitler on the international scene, even in the event of renewed hostilities with the Soviet Union, is completely unthinkable

The real issue is not the set of 100% Aryan teeth rattling around some box deep in the bowels of the Kremlin, it is the skeletons rattling increasingly loudly in the basements of Washington and London

[phylo_roadking]

And exactly who wrote that?