Did Hitler survive?

[little grey rabbit]

Severin Wallach

[phylo_roadking]

No- supposedly his superior, Andrew Venters....

Or was it? It appears that in the interim that document has been thoroughly debunked.

Enjoy... http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 34130.html

[little grey rabbit]

Or was it? It appears that in the interim that document has been thoroughly debunked.

No, it has been weakly debunked. I have read the article and fuller version Sereny's The German Trauma - which contains much additional detail and I recommend

From The German Trauma she concludes like this

It is true, however, that from the moment we met Stahl in his weird house in the Californian desert, alarm bells rang strongly in my mind even though the OSI, during our secret Sunday meeting in their Washington HQ with the director and three of his aides, assured us that if the document turned out to be forged, they saw Stahl as a victim rather than a perpetrator. He was too intelligent, they said, to try and play such tricks.
....
In the Matter of that faked CIA document, at least four agencies, the OSI, the FBI, Fort Meade and the CIA - became involved. Why did so many peiople of high rank lie about Globocnik, about Mueller and, of course, about Stahl too? Disturbingly, we are left with the question, how can it be that the American authorities take such a light view of the forgery of government documents, and indeed of the forger?

In my view "Peter Stahl" almost certainly has/had some association with US intelligence agencies - explaining why he could be suddenly be supplied with a clean house for his meeting with Sereny.

The report was declassified by accident, a copy probably fell into the hands of John Costello (who was most likely reliable) but he or someone else talked about it. US intelligence became concerned as to who else may have ordered or seen this document and employed "Peter Stahl" to get it debunked.

But if it is a forgery, everyone agrees it is an exceedingly good forgery. While subsequently "Peter Stahl" has become notorious for forgeries, he generally never presents them and appears to be acting as a classic disruption agent - but on the behalf of who?

This was an even more disturbing document, allegedly written by Wallach's superior, Andrew Venters, whose signature was also immediately authenticated from known documents

and

THE FBI's report was inconclusive: the many-times copied document did not lend itself to forensic examination, but the typewriters and typefaces were of the correct period. The OSI now had some information about the putative signatories of the documents, though they were both dead. Severin Wallach and Andrew Venters, his operations officer who countersigned the first report and was the author of the 'Annex', had worked as a team in Berlin at the relevant time. And it was quite normal for a Special Agent to prepare a report while the Operations Officer wrote an 'Annex' - an explanation or extension of the report.

Another amateur researcher has indicated some discrepancies in UK archives Globocnik records that would cast some doubt on Sereny's extremely ambiguous and uneasy "debunking":

1130 hours
GLOBOCNIK's identity discovered, bites poison, dies.

1200 hours
SS-Major MICHAELSON, SS-Major HOFFLE and SS-Oberscharfuehrer KARL HELLESBERGER view body of GLOVICNIK (sic), confess their identities.
1245 hours
8 prisoners listed in Appendix A removed by CAPTAIN WILLETT of 78 Division Provost Company, leaving Schutz in detention and under further investigation.

APPENDIX "A"

Gauleiter and SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. FRIEDRICH RAINER
SS-Gruppenfuehrer GLOVOCNIK (sic)
SS-Sturmbannfuehrer MICHAELSON
SS-Sturmbannfuehrer ERNST LERCH
SS-Sturmbannfuehrer HOFFLE
SS-Oberscharfuehrer KARL HELLESBERGER
Kreisleiter & Gaurichter HERZOG
Kreis Propaganda Leiter PLOB

Of course, it is not impossible that such discrepancies can creep into records......

[phylo_roadking]

But if it is a forgery, everyone agrees it is an exceedingly good forgery

EXCEPT for the fact that it talks about a dead man being alive, a dead man who despite what errors you may choose to seee...

Just two days later, in Austria, I had the proof I'd sought for seven months. With the help of a former SOE officer, I located Major Alex Ramsay's widow in Vienna. She knew all about the raid, and had one photo from those her husband took in Paternion on 31 May 1945. It, too, was a picture of the corpse, and behind it were three prisoners - Hofle, Michalsen and Helletsberger. But here the face of the body on the ground - in dark suit and white shirt - was unmistakably that of Globocnik, and he was unmistakably dead.

...is indeed unmistakably dead in the end. So however you choose to see it, whoever the forger is or was or what his motives were...though a few can be ventured...and no matter how good it was - though there are plenty of concerns in that article reagarding style, syntax, content etc. - it is, at heart, a forgery as it's talking about a living Globocnik. And there's not much getting away from that.

The report was declassified by accident

...or of course, it being a forgery - put into the files "declassified" to BE released on the right request Even some once-reputable historians have been found doing that (D***D I*****) One of the greatest hoaxes of the late 20th century, the whole Priory of Sion affair, was perpetrated by someone inserting material into official files...

And since the end of the Cold War haven't we heard one or two instances of U.S. service personnel taking stuff OUT of classified files during that period? More than a few Soviet agents had access to them...

In my view "Peter Stahl" almost certainly has/had some association with US intelligence agencies - explaining why he could be suddenly be supplied with a clean house for his meeting with Sereny

And only U.S. intelligence agencies can do that??? For a disinformation project like that? Your imagination is failing you now. Why must it be U.S. intelligence agencies ? Would they seriously be interested in fostering distrust between postwar allies and the U.S.? :roll: Can you not think of anyone else? In THAT particular late 1980s era??? :roll:

[little grey rabbit]

But here the face of the body on the ground - in dark suit and white shirt - was unmistakably that of Globocnik, and he was unmistakably dead.

Well, I look at that photo and I see unmistakably a torso lacking legs. Someone who was there at the time reacted to the photo like this:

When I showed Birkett the photograph with the blurred image of the body which I had found in Klagenfurt, he recognised the British soldiers but found the corpse quite unfamiliar. 'Funny,' he said, 'he's wearing a suit. I could have sworn it was lederhosen.' He shook his head, perplexed. 'Couldn't have been a switch, could there?'
...
Neither Hedley, Wheeler nor Birkett could recognise Globocnik on several photographs we showed them.

And only U.S. intelligence agencies can do that??? For a disinformation project like that? Your imagination is failing you now. Why must it be U.S. intelligence agencies ? Would they seriously be interested in fostering distrust between postwar allies and the U.S.? :roll: Can you not think of anyone else? In THAT particular late 1980s era??? :roll:

I think you are mistaking emoticons for argument. If you can point to some declassified material released after the end of the Cold War pointing out that "Peter Stahl" was a KGB agent that had access to a network of safe houses that was allowed to operated unmolested by the US government. If you can also point out evidence to the effect that "Peter Stahl" ran a communications surveillance program that was capable of picking up when Gitta Sereny was going to fly to America (which she purposefully did unannounced) - I would be fascinated.

We know who does have the technical capacity to run such surveillance - the NSA and the GCHQ. And since the Snowden revelations we know they do.

[phylo_roadking]

But here the face of the body on the ground - in dark suit and white shirt - was unmistakably that of Globocnik, and he was unmistakably dead.

Well, I look at that photo and I see unmistakably a torso lacking legs. Someone who was there at the time reacted to the photo like this:

When I showed Birkett the photograph with the blurred image of the body which I had found in Klagenfurt, he recognised the British soldiers but found the corpse quite unfamiliar. 'Funny,' he said, 'he's wearing a suit. I could have sworn it was lederhosen.' He shook his head, perplexed. 'Couldn't have been a switch, could there?'
...
Neither Hedley, Wheeler nor Birkett could recognise Globocnik on several photographs we showed them.

You DO realise that that's talking about two different pictures? :roll:

If you can point to some declassified material released after the end of the Cold War pointing out that "Peter Stahl" was a KGB agent that had access to a network of safe houses that was allowed to operated unmolested by the US government.

NOT how it works around here; YOU have the unsubstantiated claim to prove, with evidence, first...

In my view "Peter Stahl" almost certainly has/had some association with US intelligence agencies

[LWD]

... Perhaps you could provide a link to this "report"? The only report *I* know regarding Blashke's reconstruction of Hitler's plate is "United States Forces in the European Theater", Military Intelligence Service Center, Final Interrogation Report no. 31 (O1-FIR No. 31), "Hitler's Teeth" (7 pages and annexes), 5 February 1946....and last time I heard anything about it, it was still classified. ....

It shouldn't be at this point. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't fit any of the exmptions that would allow US WWII era classified documents to remain that way.

[little grey rabbit]

A selection newspaper articles
This is one is St Petersburg Times, May 9 1945, page 3

[little grey rabbit]

The Leader Post (Saskatchewan)
July 5 1945
page 1

[little grey rabbit]

An article by Louis Lochner in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. July 6 1945, page 2

[little grey rabbit]

page 3

[little grey rabbit]

Milwaukee Journal Page 2 June 10 1945

[little grey rabbit]

Deseret News. May 4 1945

[BillHermann]

just because it is in a paper does not mean its true.

[anondragon2012]

Apart from all the evidence and eye witnesses who saw Hitler's death,
Personally, I think Hitler escaping would be very uncharacteristic of his behavior.
Up to 1945, he was always in a radical mood, I think if you read what Albert Speer said of him when he met him,
Hitler was in the last years of the war very "apocalyptic" as if he knew everything was to end with him, in Berlin, in 1945.

You can see how also in his testament, the testament is clearly written in a way that the Third Reich will not exist anymore as the same state. For once he doesnt even mention a Fuhrer Successor, just a basic "President".

The overall attitude of Hitler in 1945 was...The curtain on stage will fall in Berlin and I the main actor will die here.
If he wanted to escape why even stay in the middle of Berlin when Soviets are at the gate?
All the nazis that wanted to escape left Berlin long before that, like Goering went to Southern Germany, etc...

Its so obvious Hitler had never intention of escaping. I am not even talking about escaping the enemy.
But you can clearly see in the mind of Hitler, he wanted to end his life in 1945, he did not see himself in a post-war Germany in any shape of form. That was IT. End of story.

To him, he lived his life in WW1 and Early Weimar, he fought hard, he lived a full life, gambled like Napoleon.
And in his situation in 1945...Why escape? It would be ridiculous to him and so many others after all that happened.

If you put himself inside Hitler...I say myself I would have shot myself. And many Germans who were very involved in Third Reich did. They did not hesitate. Almost entire villages poisoned themselves rather than see a new Germany without Fascism.

This was the mood in 1945, when you look at it from that mindset...You can see its absolutely ludicrous to think Hitler escaped.

Maybe in some Hollywood movie or re-portrayal/reinvention of Hitler it would happen but not to the real Hitler.