Did Hitler survive?

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Annelie
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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1171

Post by Annelie » 11 Nov 2014, 20:07

Thanks for that, but I was actually thinking about the books of those
that were there wrote? I don't actually remember one of them
mentioning doubles? I could be wrong?

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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1172

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Nov 2014, 20:29

Annelie....to people like Hugh Trevor-Roper who were getting the "definitive" Western Allied account of Hitler's last days out ASAP...trying to beat the Soviets to their version...the double(s) were a total irrelevancy to the main event.

Later - to a different generation - they became ....or rather HE became important, because the tinfoil hat brigade fastened on that picture as proof that Hitler WASN'T cremated - and so, of course the WHOLE story was faked :P :P :P

Like everything else in the story of Hitler's demise - people ignore it or use it for their own particular ends :roll:
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...


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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1173

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Nov 2014, 20:36

Someone asked up the page - the body double's name was Gustav Woler. Here's the famous film taken by the Soviets after his body was discovered outside the Chancellery door out into the garden...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA8wnuUaQQ

Most of the "still" pictures you see of this moment in books are stills taken from the film clip.
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J. Duncan
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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1174

Post by J. Duncan » 13 Nov 2014, 10:13

Robert Payne used one of these still pictures to show "..the Fuehrer in death".

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wenty
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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1175

Post by wenty » 13 Nov 2014, 11:10

Genstab:

As with Bormann, if there was no immediate proof of death in 1945, I think the natural paranoid reaction was to believe they had escaped. The suspicions of the Soviets didn't help the situation.

Phylo:

I haven't mastered the quote function, so bear with me and, again, i'll keep it brief as you don't seem to be understanding the concept that after all these years, i'm not interested in being drawn into another lengthy debate. You have your (clearly immodest) beliefs and I have mine, and that's that.

As I recall it, wasn't the doppelganger found in a chancellery water tank? He was kept in a different part entirely to where Hitler was, there was no need for him to be there. The only plausible explanation, to me at least, is that he was there to be used as a decoy if necessary. Even you, in all your knowledge, can't come up with a satisfactory explanation for his still being in the chancellery - why wasn't he out fighting on the streets of Berlin with the volkssturm !? ;)

Regarding Zhukov and the Russians we seem to be in some sort of agreement - there was a lot of misinformation released to the press, whether it was by design or otherwise.

Annelie:

Good question. Perhaps it's just one of those historical tidbits that nobody pays much attention to, especially since it wasn't 'the' Hitler and it's common knowledge that he had doubles. You can see a photo of the body of the doppelganger (Gustav Weler by name) here:

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/adolf-hitler/

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1176

Post by phylo_roadking » 13 Nov 2014, 16:02

As I recall it, wasn't the doppelganger found in a chancellery water tank? He was kept in a different part entirely to where Hitler was, there was no need for him to be there. The only plausible explanation, to me at least, is that he was there to be used as a decoy if necessary. Even you, in all your knowledge, can't come up with a satisfactory explanation for his still being in the chancellery - why wasn't he out fighting on the streets of Berlin with the volkssturm !?
On the contrary - there's a previously-mentioned perfectly good reason why he was still in the Chancellery - one you won't grasp for some reason...
I think it's patently obvious that there was one last use for the body double - If not necessarily by Hitler...
What use was he supposed to be to whoever organised the half-hearted deception plan if he was out in the ruins somewhere, fighting and being killed? A double only has "use" if he's somewhere you WANT him to be.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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wenty
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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1177

Post by wenty » 23 Nov 2014, 02:25

Phylo:

Apologies for the slow reply, obviously the forum has been out of action for a short while. The "perfectly good reason" is only that to you, I don't see it at all.

Your second point proves what i'm saying precisely - if he had no further use as a body double for Hitler (say, for public appearances with the Russians on the doorstep) then why wasn't he sent out with the rest of the Volkssturm and thrown together units in a last bid to defend the city? Or removed in another way? That's just one example. So the very fact that he was still in the Chancellery indicates to me that he was still needed for something, and that something might well have been to throw the Russians off the scent of where the real Hitler was when they made it to the Chancellery.

However, you're debating just one very small point out of numerous ones that point to the potential escape of Hitler. I'd suggest you start looking at the bigger picture.

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1178

Post by J. Duncan » 23 Nov 2014, 18:19

The major problem with this wishful and fanciful view is that if you read the literature on Hitler's death and compare it to the works written on Hitler's "escape" you will find that the argument for the former is the much stronger one. The Hitler escape literature is written by people of a sensationalist and journalistic bent and they don't even get the most basic facts of Hitler's life correct. They have so many mistakes and use such dubious sources (again, sources such as Paul Manning!) that one cannot take these books seriously. You cannot skirt around the FACTS that scholars have demonstrated in book after book. Trevor Roper, Bezyminsky, Joachimsthaler, eyewitness testimony ( Linge, Kempka, Misch, Junge, Boldt), the made for Stalin "Hitler Book", and countless others. What we have on the other side are dubious source material (Paul Manning!), Gerard Williams, and imagination and fantasy. The arguments for a Hitler survival post war are just not convincing to a discerning reader who has studied the forensic and scholarly work of people who are interested in finding historical facts as opposed to those chasing loose threads, loose leads, hearsay from maids and porters, doctored pieces of paper, drug lords, American gangsters in New York City, Murder Inc., body-doubles, haciendas in South America, missing U-Boats, secret Antarctic bases, UFO's, alien reptiles, etc...
Can anyone really blame rational people for arguing against such nonsense?

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Re: To those who believe Hitler survived WWII

#1179

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Nov 2014, 19:33

...The "perfectly good reason" is only that to you, I don't see it at all.

Your second point proves what i'm saying precisely - if he had no further use as a body double for Hitler (say, for public appearances with the Russians on the doorstep) then why wasn't he sent out with the rest of the Volkssturm and thrown together units in a last bid to defend the city? Or removed in another way? That's just one example. So the very fact that he was still in the Chancellery indicates to me that he was still needed for something, and that something might well have been to throw the Russians off the scent of where the real Hitler was when they made it to the Chancellery.
Adam, you're STILL not getting it.

There was OBVIOUSLY a perfectly good reason, one very good and obvious use for a body double for Hitler...which is why I've been careful to use that term instead of doppelganger...

And yet you're SO close!
So the very fact that he was still in the Chancellery indicates to me that he was still needed for something, and that something might well have been to throw the Russians off the scent of where the real Hitler was when they made it to the Chancellery.
Hitler didn't want his body to fall into Soviet hands...but they would keep on looking for it unless someone kindly provided them with a Hitler body...

A "body double" doesn't have to be alive - it can also be a "dead body" double...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1180

Post by wenty » 25 Nov 2014, 04:02

J. Duncan:

I completely agree with you, and I completely understand why most people struggle to understand how Hitler could have escaped when there are such fanciful theories around. However, as i've made clear before, I don't believe his method of escape was something along the lines of commissioning some secret Nazi technology to whisk him out Berlin, where he moved to the safety of Argentina and died at the age of 100, still plotting the rise of the Fourth Reich. That IS ridiculous. I believe only in the possibility that he could have escaped, and if he managed to do so given his condition in 1945, it's very unlikely that he would have lived for more than 2-3 years anyway. Fred McKenzie wrote a book called "The Death (?) of Adolf Hitler" some years ago where he had him dying in Spain in 1947, under a pseudonym. His work is where a lot of my thoughts about a possible Hitler escape has come from, so I would strongly urge you, Phylo and anyone else who has a passing interest to try and get hold of that book. I think it's out of print now but you may be lucky enough to get it from an online store or somewhere.

Phylo:

It's pretty obvious, even just from looking at the photos of the dead double, that it is not Hitler. It would have thrown the Soviets off the scent for all of about 5 seconds, and soon enough they found the bodies in the garden anyway. So what was the point?

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1181

Post by steverodgers801 » 25 Nov 2014, 04:34

Hitler would not have wanted to survive. He had lived for 12 years as a god, would such a person really accept a life as a average person. The fact that Goebbels also killed himself and his family I believe is evidence. Of all his followers Goebbels was the one true believer and if his god died he would not live either

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1182

Post by Adibach » 25 Nov 2014, 08:40

totally agree with steverodgers801 , I too think the Goebbels knew that Hitler was dead and could not face the future without him..If he did escape,dont you think they would have gone with him,wherever he went.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1183

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 25 Nov 2014, 14:03

Hi Wenty,

Hitler's body double was an important resource / asset for the Gestapo and Rattenhuber. They would not want to let go of him till the last minute. All security agencies have to be prepared for all probabilities and possibilities at all times.

Please remember that Hitler's death wasnt announced to the outside world immediately. Gen Krebs informed Chuikov on 1st May. Subsequently radio announcements were made. Outside the immediate entourage at the bunker, troops and officials even in the chancellery area came to know after a day of the event.

It has been asked here, why wasnt the double released for volksturm duty when he had no further use. Why should he be? He wasnt some kind of a panzerfaust ace or expert sniper. Why would they have someone running loose in the ruins who looked like Hitler and who knew a thing or two about his own past appearances in Hitler's stead ?

If Hitler escaped so would presumably have Eva.. Then who dies in her stead? Has anyone heard of an Eva Braun double!? So Hitler went to Spain without Eva, Goebbels, Baur....who looked after him? who protected him? What was the point of his making the exertion and living on, at the mercy of Franko, as a nobody!? He .. who had ruled Europe and North Africa till a short while back !!

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1184

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Nov 2014, 19:04

It's pretty obvious, even just from looking at the photos of the dead double, that it is not Hitler. It would have thrown the Soviets off the scent for all of about 5 seconds, and soon enough they found the bodies in the garden anyway. So what was the point?
...rembering that corpses do not necessarily look exactly like the livng person any more...once the face looses muscle tone etc - AND after a couple of days out in the elements :P

As for the bodies in the Chancellery garden - the point was that they were LESS destroyed than was originally intended; IIRC Hans Baur asked for 200 litres of petrol to be found in the Chancellery garage...but only some 50 litres could be found, only a quarter of the fuel he wanted to properly cremate the bodies.

I've posted this on AHF before - but a human body is VERY hard to incinterate. Even a modern rematorium usually only gives you back the "ashes", the ashes that have desposited from the burning body...but large bones etc. can often require hours of incinerating. There's a suprising amount of water in the human body, and it takes a LOT of burning over a long time to properly destroy a body...AND certainly other preparations, just as placing the body on top of a bier so designed as to allow air to be drawn in under the fire to feed it, not unlike the principle behind a blast furnace. In the right circumstances, the body fat can indeed ignite and add to the process, but it's by no means certain, and the issue of the amount of water in the body tissue has to be overcome...

As does the issue of clothing! Of the 50 litres of petrol available, a percentage of that would have been consumed just burning up the clothing the two corpses were still dressed in, not to mention the blanket Hitler was wrapped in to be carried out of the Bunker. IIRC the autopsy results said that the lower legs of the recovered corpse were still wearing what was identifiably Hitler's dress trousers - which at least one witness to the funeral had identified the wrapped body by as it was being carried out of the Bunker door. It's ALSO been recorded by witnesses as being very windy that day, so a lot of the heat and flame would simply have been blown aside from the bodies. And as noted above, it didn't help at all that the corpses were just laid in a shell crater, dowsed with petrol and set alight...with no thought given for an air channel under them to feed the flames etc..

So - no attempt to properly construct a funeral pyre, the bodies were burned fully dressed and wrapped in blankets, there was less than a quarter the fuel hoped for, and the weather conditions did not favour burning anything that day...and thus the corpses were not properly consumed and rendered wholly unrecognisable. This would obviously NOT have been the attention at all; given all the OTHER preparations made, the two corpses should have been totally immolated leaving just the various bodies in and around the Bunker and Chancellery dressed in bits and bobs of Hitler's uniforms to be found by the Soviets...

In the end, as we know there were more than THEIR bodies to be found in the Chancellery garden :P After all, the 1947-8 re-investigation of the events of the end of April managed to turn up fragments of another female skeleton there...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1185

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 25 Nov 2014, 20:25

phylo_roadking wrote:
It's pretty obvious, even just from looking at the photos of the dead double, that it is not Hitler. It would have thrown the Soviets off the scent for all of about 5 seconds, and soon enough they found the bodies in the garden anyway. So what was the point?
...rembering that corpses do not necessarily look exactly like the livng person any more...once the face looses muscle tone etc - AND after a couple of days out in the elements :P

As for the bodies in the Chancellery garden - the point was that they were LESS destroyed than was originally intended; IIRC Hans Baur asked for 200 litres of petrol to be found in the Chancellery garage...but only some 50 litres could be found, only a quarter of the fuel he wanted to properly cremate the bodies.

I've posted this on AHF before - but a human body is VERY hard to incinterate. Even a modern rematorium usually only gives you back the "ashes", the ashes that have desposited from the burning body...but large bones etc. can often require hours of incinerating. There's a suprising amount of water in the human body, and it takes a LOT of burning over a long time to properly destroy a body...AND certainly other preparations, just as placing the body on top of a bier so designed as to allow air to be drawn in under the fire to feed it, not unlike the principle behind a blast furnace. In the right circumstances, the body fat can indeed ignite and add to the process, but it's by no means certain, and the issue of the amount of water in the body tissue has to be overcome...
.........
In the end, as we know there were more than THEIR bodies to be found in the Chancellery garden :P After all, the 1947-8 re-investigation of the events of the end of April managed to turn up fragments of another female skeleton there...
Hi Phylo_Roadking...

Largely agree with you but for some details as under :

[*] It wasnt Hans Baur but Otto Gunsche who asked for 200 litres for petrol to be brought from the chancellery garage ( Erik Kempka was sent for this). He could fetch about 180 litres and not 50...

You are perhaps confusing this with the Goebbels' funeral? In the case of the Goebbels couple, a relatively small quantity ( maybe 50 lit) was brought.

[*] The Hitler couple's bodies were in fact burnt quite substantially, though not completely. The Goebbels' bodies were slightly burnt and the remains of Goebbels was easily identified by the shape of his head.

[*] The female skeleton ( rather skull?)was most probably that of Magda Goebbels.

Ciao

Sandeep

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