Did Hitler survive?

[White Leopard]

Thank you Durand for your lengthy and much-needed post on this fabulous book. We look forward to Chrisccoyle's rebuttal of your post and defence of Mackenzie.

[xcalibur]

Thank you Durand for your lengthy and much-needed post on this fabulous book. We look forward to Chrisccoyle's rebuttal of your post and defence of Mackenzie.

Indeed, well done Durand.....

[Geli]

So sorry, but a friend of mine is able to bring the man to munich, who brought gasoline on Hitlers and Eva Brauns dead body and lighted it.
He is still alive and I try to get his adress. So long ...
Arminius

You mean Otto Guensche? I'm sure people who enjoy the "Hitler escaped" theory would say that he is lying, too.

[Geli]

Geli,
I can't remember specifically the details of the interviews and, therefore, can't place "blind spot". Please explain. Helga was the oldest, wasn't she?
TC
(I tend to write these messages on the spur of the moment without going back to my source material!--probably a big mistake with the knowledgeable people on the Forum).
P.S.--You've read Junge's book "Voices from the Bunker"? VERY interesting!

I haven't read her book; I didn't know that it was available in English.
"Blind Spot" is a documentary film about Frau Junge. I saw it in New York City a few months ago. It was shown in very limied release.

Yes, Helga was the oldest.

[wenty]

DURAND: I am not going to deny it, you made a decent post there, and raised some interesting points. HOWEVER, you have deliberately ignored some points to make your post sound better.
First of all, you are bringing up a strong connection between Joachimsthaler-Trevor-Roper-O'Donnell. You have only sited very small parts of the book which they agreed on, where as i have Joachimsthaler's book, and in lots more than one occasion, he overrules both O'Donnell's and Trevor-Roper's calculations and comments in their books, and adds his own totally different ones. That's one thing that has been overlooked.

Another thing. McKenzie clearly states in his book that his original 2000+ page book had been limited well down due to Publisher's expenses, so don't you consider it possible that he was trying to use as much of that space as possible to deal with AH, rather than citations, etc?

And Again. I can't proove or disporrove the Rommel thing.
But the peopel there all went up the hill for a smoke, to avoid witnessing the death of someone they considered a great commander, but when they returned 20 mintues later, he was still writhing in pain and agony!! Something must have been done to it, because it only takes no more than 5 seconds in most cases.

Once More. Johannmeier, etc were all ordered to take a copy of his last will and testament, in the hope that one would get through.
doesn't it seem absolutely ludicrous to you that all 3 were sent on the same plane???? (or supposed to anyway). If he wanted one to get through, wouldn't it be logical for them to take different transport??

And Again. It has been prooved the tunnels were flooded, and Mohnke was in charge of the "Citadel"...nothing to do with flooding...and remember, thousands of people seeking refuge in the tunnels were drowned! and the air conditioning was broken down in the tunnel section...

Once Again. Dr. Stumpfegger was new, and wasn't the one giving Hitler the tablets, injections, etc.
An even in his increasing tantrum-throwing state, he would not have fired a doctor who had served him for 10 years.
Haase wasn't present as often as Morell either, and didn't give Hitler drugs.

And Again. Hitler knew the extremely hazardous conitions on the Munich-Berlin run, and they lost !!!!40!!!! planes escorting them on the way there. There would have to be something more to it, that could not be dicussed over the phone.

One More. How do you know the diagrams aren't fakes? Isn't it not just possible, but likely, that the real ones were burnt or destroyed, while fake ones were made to confuse the later investigators.

And also, the only thing historians and investigators base their theory that Hitler died on is the testimony of the people present, Nazi Loyalists!! Asi f they're going to give a true story about what happened to Hitler.

That's all i have to say for now. I hope it helps. Cheers.

[Durand]

Hallo,

Wenty wrote:

you are bringing up a strong connection between Joachimsthaler-Trevor-Roper-O'Donnell. You have only sited very small parts of the book which they agreed on, where as i have Joachimsthaler's book, and in lots more than one occasion, he overrules both O'Donnell's and Trevor-Roper's calculations and comments in their books, and adds his own totally different ones. That's one thing that has been overlooked.

I have in no way claimed or implied that Joachimsthaler/Trevor-Roper/O'Donnell are in complete agreement with regards to the facts or their conclusions. What I did was reference discrete pieces of information (mainly source interview material) from the books by these authors. It is called doing research. The specific discrete pieces of information used in the earlier post were not contradicted within this group of authors. The conclusions and positions of those authors have no bearing on the validity of the material I referenced or on my criticisms of McKenzie.

Joachimsthaler does have a problem (and I think rightly so) with regard to Trevor-Roper's and O'Donnell's information regarding the dimensions of the Führer Bunker. What is not in contention between Joachimstahler/Trevor-Roper/O'Donnell is the alleged existence of a second doorway into Hitler's suite of rooms through the public toilets. None of the sketches appearing in their works show such a doorway to exist.

Wenty wrote:

McKenzie clearly states in his book that his original 2000+ page book had been limited well down due to Publisher's expenses, so don't you consider it possible that he was trying to use as much of that space as possible to deal with AH, rather than citations, etc?

If McKenzie's claim/explanation regarding this issue is true, then he made a poor decision and wasted his money (as well as that of those who purchased his book). "Citations, etc" are not a luxury. They are necessary to make a non-fiction work credible. This is particularly true when an author finds new information or makes claims that stray from the generally accepted facts. If money was such a concern, he should have limited the scope of his project, concentrated on one period of time or theme, and provided proper and adequate support. What McKenzie did was write a book similar in style and credibility to articles appearing in the "Weekly World News." Like said articles, it provides momentary entertainment, but lacks any lasting interest or credibility. Lasting interest and credibility could have generated more income/funding to produce additional works. In short, we only have his excuse on the issue and its sound is worthy of any carnie or con-man.


Wenty wrote:

I can't proove or disporrove the Rommel thing. But the peopel there all went up the hill for a smoke, to avoid witnessing the death of someone they considered a great commander, but when they returned 20 mintues later, he was still writhing in pain and agony!! Something must have been done to it, because it only takes no more than 5 seconds in most cases.

You seem to be missing the point. I do not expect you to prove or disprove "the Rommel thing". I have also read descriptions of Rommel's death in other works which reflect the length of time it took Rommel to die. The time period is not the issue. McKenzie makes the claim that the poison contained 90 percent water. The point is that we should not have to "prove" anything about it. It is his responsibility to prove it by providing credible references. He provided none.

Wenty wrote:

Once More. Johannmeier, etc were all ordered to take a copy of his last will and testament, in the hope that one would get through. doesn't it seem absolutely ludicrous to you that all 3 were sent on the same plane???? (or supposed to anyway). If he wanted one to get through, wouldn't it be logical for them to take different transport??

The information is based on Trevor-Roper's interviews with Johannmeier, Zander, and Lorenz. According to the account, Johannmeier contacted Dönitz's headquarters during the day of April 30 in an effort to secure an aircraft. Under perfect circumstances, it would be better to take three completely different routes. However, the conditions were not perfect. The number of viable escape routes was limited and those available were hazardous. The Soviets had already circled the city and they were operating near Lake Havel. The window of opportunity to get flights in and out was narrow and the number of available aircraft was limited. With those factors and being pressed for time, it does make sense that Johannmeier and company would decide to rely on one aircraft. Although it is repetitive, the point is that the world has a good idea of what happened based on known sources of information. McKenzie provides no sources to account for his version.

Wenty wrote:

It has been prooved the tunnels were flooded, and Mohnke was in charge of the "Citadel"...nothing to do with flooding...and remember, thousands of people seeking refuge in the tunnels were drowned! and the air conditioning was broken down in the tunnel section...

Writing the tunnels were flooded or not flooded does not make one's point of view true. SS-Brigadeführer Mohnke was an authority figure charged with a role in defending Berlin and, more to the point, Hitler's Bunker. To suggest that he would not have known or heard about such measures is not likely. According to LeTissier's "Race for the Reichstag" (page 70) flooding the tunnels under the Spree and the Landwehr Canal were considered. The Waffen SS responsible for the "Zitadelle" took charge of the plans and installations in preparation for flooding as a defensive measure. It is entirely possible that some local flooding occurred in individual tunnels and I seem to recall reading somewhere about an eyewitness account or two surfacing in the post-war press about flooding. However, if thousands died due to drowning, it is curious that mention of such a tragedy does not appear to be mentioned in LeTissier, O'Donnell, Beevor, etc. Again, the point is not for us to have to prove it. It may or may not have happened. The point is that McKenzie makes yet another claim without providing support for it.

Wenty wrote:

Dr. Stumpfegger was new, and wasn't the one giving Hitler the tablets, injections, etc. An even in his increasing tantrum-throwing state, he would not have fired a doctor who had served him for 10 years. Haase wasn't present as often as Morell either, and didn't give Hitler drugs.

Dr. Stumpfegger became Hitler's surgical escort in the fall of 1944. At the very least, he did on occasion assist Morell. According to Morell's diary for April 20, 1945 (Irving, page 218), "Injected intravenous strophantose, Betabion forte, plus Harmin - that is to say, I had to get Dr. Stumpfegger to do them as I was too shaky." Dr. Stumpfegger was also present during Hitler's eye examination on April 7. Haase had also examined Hitler in the past. McKenzie's point was that Hitler purposely dismissed Morell in order to remove medical personnel who could easily, and with authority, recognize a Hitler replacement. The claim is nonsense since there were at least two physicians present who had treated Hitler.

With regard to the firing during a tantrum: It is entirely and reasonably possible. People having tantrums are usually not acting rationally. They say and do silly things during such episodes. On occasion, injuries, divorces, and death have come about as a result of tantrums.

Wenty wrote:

Hitler knew the extremely hazardous conitions on the Munich-Berlin run, and they lost !!!!40!!!! planes escorting them on the way there. There would have to be something more to it, that could not be dicussed over the phone.

According to McKenzie, it was a run between Plöner See and Berlin, but we can leave that to the side. As I wrote earlier, it was not a rational order and it is possible that that the flight was also some type of test for an escape. If it was a test, the result showed the proposition to be extremely hazardous with little chance for success. Here again, McKenzie provides no sources to support his claim on this issue.

With regard to the losses, the summary report of Reitsch's interrogation dated 8 October 1945 reflects that 40 planes provided the escort with heavy losses. Baur claimed that 20 escorts flew the mission with the loss of half.

Wenty wrote:

How do you know the diagrams aren't fakes? Isn't it not just possible, but likely, that the real ones were burnt or destroyed, while fake ones were made to confuse the later investigators.

If one wants to talk "possibilities" such a thing is remotely possible, but not likely. It smacks of the stuff of a Ludlum thriller rather than reality. When Allied investigators, such as Trevor-Roper, arrived the structure was in place. His sketch is based on his visit. Are you suggesting that new walls were built between the time of Hitler's death and the arrival of the Allies to confuse investigators? The people of the Bunker had other things in mind. For example, surviving and escaping the Soviets. One knows where Trevor-Roper, O'Donnell, and Joachimsthaler get their information on the topic. One apparently can not say the same for McKenzie.


Wenty wrote:

the only thing historians and investigators base their theory that Hitler died on is the testimony of the people present, Nazi Loyalists!! Asi f they're going to give a true story about what happened to Hitler.

When the leader or regime to which a person is loyal dies, it is surprising how quickly that person's loyalty dies. The leader or regime does not even have to be dead. At some point, some people make the decision that such loyalty is no longer beneficial to them or no longer makes sense. Take for example many of the defectors who came to the West during the Cold War or the spies that have recently turned up in the US government. More immediate to Nazi Germany, take a look at Himmler and Fegelein. Also the people partying in the upper bunker and the comments of a sense of relief upon the news of Hitler's death does not bespeak of a strong fanatical loyalty. If Hitler survived Berlin to die in Spain in 1947, someone somewhere would have talked in order to make money, or to brag about their role in the plan, or just to say the "glorious Führer" fooled the world. It may seem to hard to believe, but conspiracies really do not work in the real world and eventually the truth will out.

It is not my intention to continue to engage in a point-by-point duel over McKenzie. If I wished to take the time, there is much more that could be added. I do not have the time or the interest. There is little point because no amount of discussion along the lines of "it is, is not" or coulda, shoulda, woulda or "isn't it just possible" is going to change the fact that McKenzie's work lacks credibility. I entertained no expectation that I would change people's minds. I read his books, provided a review, and presented reasonable and supported counterpoints to the less constrained "McKenzian" points provided in earlier posts. In doing so, I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated that McKenzie's work reflects poor research, inadequate references, misrepresentations and, possibly, fabrications.

Regards,

Durand

[xcalibur]

In support of Durand's point about doors I've attached this diagram of the bunker from Trevor-Roper's book:

[Durand]

Hallo Xcalibur,

Thank you for posting the diagram. Trying to describe it without showing it can be confusing for readers. I would have liked to have provided them, but I do not have a scanner.

Regards,

Durand

[Grünherz]

Durand,
Your replies make the most sense. Thank you. I'll stay out of this disagreement since I don't have the time, energy or will to argue the points. I DO believe the witnesses and testimonies regarding Hitler's suicide after reading various history books, including Junge's (despite various contradictions about details).
About the bunker's construction, I would recommend the Number 61 edition of After the Battle magazine dated 1988 where there is an article about the final days, the cast of characters, pictures, and diagrams of the bunker including one made from actual observations from the final (?) excavation.
TC

[xcalibur]

Hallo Xcalibur,

Thank you for posting the diagram. Trying to describe it without showing it can be confusing for readers. I would have liked to have provided them, but I do not have a scanner.

Regards,

Durand

My pleasure. The McKenzie book comes right off the stable floor. Yes, ideed, there will always be major questions regarding the details of the demise of Hitler, Bormann, and cetera.. .But I don't for one second believe that those folks closest to Hitler lied tremendously about what ultimately was his fate.

Having spoken with some of the principals involved (both by letter and in person) in the latter 1970's and early 1980's, I can assure you that they were not lying... Reticent, perhaps, they did equivocate about certain aspects....They had nothing to gain by lying. It was for all of them, to one degree or another, an immensely painful part of their lives, and one which had very serious psychological consequences for some of them.

It's not so easy writing history.... Unless one is Mr. McKenzie.... I shouldn't be so harsh on him in particular, at the end of the day he's just a dude trying to sell a book.... But it does seem that this kind of what passes for scholarship is gaining a tremendous popular appeal. And that's very sad.... What can I say...OJ didn't kill his wife but left the murder scene with 6 gallons of DNA evidence that placed him at the scene... Fine... so Hitler went to Spain and became Franco's gardener... Is there anything wrong with these pictures?... Other than the wishful thinking of a few who wished " it were so"?

[wenty]

DURAND: I am aware that you nowhere said that the 3 men were in complete agreement about the bunker structure and dimensions, but you did, however, fail to state the Author's different points of view about the other way out from the room in Mackenzie's book. You have only mentioned parts of the book dealing with that which the other 2, but not Mackenzie, agree on. Also, the parts of Mackenzie's book you did quote, and attempt to disproove below them, also relied on other AUthor's oppinions, and, as before, Nazi Statements.
His entire book was devoted right from the Birth of Adolf Hitler, right through to a submarine which was found off the coast of Brazil in 1950.
What more could you expect him to squeeze into a 710 page book, which, by the way, has a total of 29 chapters, not including Bibliography and Index. Can you personally proove or disproove what Mackenzie says? were you there to witness everything? I think not!!
Whether the 90% diluted capsule is true or not, i don't know. But it is quite obvious that something must have been done to it to have taken so long to finally kill him.
The Russians may have been operating near the Havel, but they had little or no hold on it by then. In Joachimsthaler's book, it shows quite a large part of the Havel still in German hands by May 1st!!
The idea of limited transport is ludicrous. He was adamant one copy atleast must get through, but why send the 3 carriers in the same plane? There would have been atleast 90% chance of the aircraft being shot down, technical problems, crashing, or capture of the three men. That was definetely a flight to see if it was feasible to fly to Berlin...there is no other explanation for that one.
Hitler, by the end of April 1945, wouldn't have been able to hammer a nail into a piece of wood, let alone injure someone, unless he got someone else to do it for him...but he often fired people then brought them back again after tantrums...it happened quite a few times...he would have brought Morell back too if he had time to.
It is actually highly likely other plans were printed, just to fool the enemy, while others were destroyed..Hitler ordered nearly all of his files burnt near the end, so it is highly likely that the plans were among them...
as for the building of new tunnels, i can't offer any reasonable explanation for that.
They would have been loyal to Hitler for the rest of their lives!! Even 50, 60, 70, or 100 years after it!!
He would have obviously told no-one the escape plan but the very few who needed to know..most of whom died or committed suicide before capture, or, the few others who knew, were sworn to absolute secrecy...and would suffer anything to keep the secret.
This discussion is also far from the work of Mackenzie...although it involves him, the main topic if discussion is whether Hitler escaped or died.
ALso, one last point for now. For someone who "doesn't have the time or interest" , you have obviously found both to write several lenghty posts, and for someone who doesn't have an interest in it, you seem to have found quite a bit to say. Where else, apart from historians accounts, did you manage to get so much information if i may ask?? Thanks. Cheers.

[White Leopard]

Wenty wrote:

Can you personally proove or disproove what Mackenzie says? were you there to witness everything? I think not!!

Were you? In the end, one must believe an author through choice and/or the proof he presents. MacKenzie wrote a book that he claimed was true. He stated a great number of things that went against the accepted record. He claimed to have studied the subject for thirty-odd years. No serious student of history and non-fiction would make such claims without producing reams of sources and traceable facts that could prove his case to the satisfaction of skeptics. That is how real changes to history are made. To be so cavalier about proof for statements and claims is a strong indictment against the author's honesty.


Even if Mackenzie did not have the money to put his "Proof" in his book, why has he never produced it? Did he ever bring out any sort of source material? Since it appears to me that his books never got beyond the shores of Australia, perhaps you can answer this question.

[Durand]

Hallo Wenty,

Wenty wrote:

I am aware that you nowhere said that the 3 men were in complete agreement about the bunker structure and dimensions, but you did, however, fail to state the Author's different points of view about the other way out from the room in Mackenzie's book. You have only mentioned parts of the book dealing with that which the other 2, but not Mackenzie, agree on.

Joachimsthaler and Trevor-Roper describe only one way out of the Hitler suite of rooms and that is through the antechamber off the main corridor. There is no second doorway in the descriptions. A second doorway pops up only in McKenzie.

What more could you expect him to squeeze into a 710 page book, which, by the way, has a total of 29 chapters, not including Bibliography and Index.

Can you personally proove or disproove what Mackenzie says? were you there to witness everything? I think not!!

The Russians may have been operating near the Havel, but they had little or no hold on it by then. In Joachimsthaler's book, it shows quite a large part of the Havel still in German hands by May 1st!!

If the map to which you are referring is the one captioned "A drawing showing the last German resistance points in Berlin on 1 May 1945", you need to consult it again. The interior of the circular line around the Reichssportfield represents the relative positions of the Germans. The area outside the circle is held by the Soviets, which includes the banks of the River Havel and the shores of Lake Havel.

Hitler, by the end of April 1945, wouldn't have been able to hammer a nail into a piece of wood, let alone injure someone, unless he got someone else to do it for him...but he often fired people then brought them back again after tantrums...it happened quite a few times...he would have brought Morell back too if he had time to.

It makes no difference whatsoever whether Hitler would have hired Morell back or not. Based on McKenzie, you indicated earlier: "Why did he fire Morell after he'd treated him for years and almost kileld other doctors for questioning him?? Answer= Morell knew too much about Hitler and His health and had to be eliminated." I responded that there were, in fact, two other physicians present up to the end who had treated Hitler, so having to eliminate Morell because he knew too much is nonsensical.

It is actually highly likely other plans were printed, just to fool the enemy, while others were destroyed..Hitler ordered nearly all of his files burnt near the end, so it is highly likely that the plans were among them... as for the building of new tunnels, i can't offer any reasonable explanation for that.

They would have been loyal to Hitler for the rest of their lives!! Even 50, 60, 70, or 100 years after it!! He would have obviously told no-one the escape plan but the very few who needed to know..most of whom died or committed suicide before capture, or, the few others who knew, were sworn to absolute secrecy...and would suffer anything to keep the secret.

This discussion is also far from the work of Mackenzie...although it involves him, the main topic if discussion is whether Hitler escaped or died.

I was unaware that addressing the points from McKenzie presented by you and ChrisCoyle on this thread was off topic.

ALso, one last point for now. For someone who "doesn't have the time or interest" , you have obviously found both to write several lenghty posts, and for someone who doesn't have an interest in it, you seem to have found quite a bit to say. Where else, apart from historians accounts, did you manage to get so much information if i may ask??

You have chosen to take my statements out of context. I will also add that I do not appreciate the rudeness in your response. There is no reason for the smart aleck tone that you direct against me. I have been polite and reasonable in my posts on this matter. I expect the same of you.

Regards,

Durand

[wenty]

WHITE LEOPARD: No, i wasn't personally there, neither were you, and neither was any of us!! So none of us can give a personal description....
DURAND: First of all, i haven't read Trevor-Roper's book, but the most unlikely has prooved to be true in other cases...it could be the same in McKenzie's case as well. Also, for some reason that is beyond my understaning, you have answered statements 2,3,6 AND 7 with dumb faces-- why is that? Is it because you can't come up with a good enough explanation? Please Explain! With Joachimsthaler's book, yes, i was referring to that picture, i guess i must have misunderstood the meaning of the picture, i assumed the whole of the areas the picture covered was where the Germans were situated by May 1.
Morell had in his file and diary everything he had ever done to him, so i wouldn't call it "nonsensical", but more "Likely" i think.
You misinterpreted me with the addressing the points issue. I said "This Discussion Is Far From The Work Of Mackenzie, although it involves him, the main topic of discussion is whether Hitler died or escape". Nowhere did i mention that it was off topic to discuss Mackenzie's points. I'm sorry if i appeared to be rude, or making smart aleck comments, but i can't really see where i've done that.please explain more!! Thanks.
BTW you still haven't provided any sources for your information. Please do so. Thanks.

[AHLF]

Hi all(and especially wenty ),

I've recently found an interesting article, with quotes from a new book about, what else, Hitler's escape.
I'll post it for your pleasure in one more day.
best,
AHLF.