Did Hitler survive?

[Vikki]

An off-topic post was removed pursuant to several warnings in the (now closed) thread on the same topic.

~Vikki

[Schnitzel]

Did the Soviet reports specify how much of the corpses of Mr and Mrs Hitler were found in the hole where they had been cremated?

Placing bodies in a hole in the ground, soaking them in petrol, and then setting fire to them, will not actually result in substantial destruction of those bodies, since the fire would never generate enough heat to do more than char the skin, and perhaps render the facial features unrecognisable. Petrol burns intensely, but is quickly consumed, so the fire goes out before much damage is done to the bodies.

What is required to reduce a body to a lump of charcoal is a sustained high temperature over a considerable period of time, not something that can be achieved by pouring a can of petrol over the body and setting fire to it.

Burnt human bodies will shrink into twisted masses as they lose moisture and become consumed by flame.
I have seen and handled several through my work in the EMS system. Even in cremation, the larger bones will remain virtually intact, hence the need for bone grinders. To take a body to the charcoal stage would require a very long burn time combined with removal of most of the moisture.

[michael mills]

Burnt human bodies will shrink into twisted masses as they lose moisture and become consumed by flame.

Indeed, but how much heat, applied for what length of time, is required to evaporate all the moisture in a body, and begin to consume it?

I have read that the internal organs of victims of housefires are often preserved due to the large amount of fluid inside the abdominal and thoracic cavities. That can be the case even if the outside of the body is completely charred and the limbs and head burned away.

[waldzee]

Burnt human bodies will shrink into twisted masses as they lose moisture and become consumed by flame.

Indeed, but how much heat, applied for what length of time, is required to evaporate all the moisture in a body, and begin to consume it?

I have read that the internal organs of victims of housefires are often preserved due to the large amount of fluid inside the abdominal and thoracic cavities. That can be the case even if the outside of the body is completely charred and the limbs and head burned away.

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the only advantage of gasoline is to start a 'sustained source' on fire.
Unfortunately, the vast projects in synthetic fuel, given 1940's technology, produced vast amonts of tar- which the SS used in cremation pryes .
If the bodies were burnt , standard practise would be to tar coat them, then layer them in wood.

[michael mills]

the only advantage of gasoline is to start a 'sustained source' on fire.
Unfortunately, the vast projects in synthetic fuel, given 1940's technology, produced vast amonts of tar- which the SS used in cremation pryes .
If the bodies were burnt , standard practise would be to tar coat them, then layer them in wood.

Yes, that "standard practice" was used in the cremation of the exhumed bodies of the Jewish victims.

But the witness statements in regard to the burning of the bodies of Mr and Mrs Hitler do not state that they were placed on pyre and subjected to sustained burning.

They all say that petrol was poured over them and ignited. That would not be nearly enough to consume them; the petrol would have been used up and the fire extinguished before more than superficial damage to the bodies had been inflicted. The faces might have been burned sufficiently to render them unrecognisable, but that would have been about all.

[phylo_roadking]

Indeed, but how much heat, applied for what length of time, is required to evaporate all the moisture in a body, and begin to consume it?

I have read that the internal organs of victims of housefires are often preserved due to the large amount of fluid inside the abdominal and thoracic cavities. That can be the case even if the outside of the body is completely charred and the limbs and head burned away.

Quite correct; it's how often forensic scientists can identify the real cause of death if someone has tried to dispose of a muder victim by burning the body...! Or if there's been an accidental housefire, for instance. There is very often enough body fluids and water inside the body both to protect the torso AND to retain poisons, chemical traces for later analysis, etc.

They all say that petrol was poured over them and ignited. That would not be nearly enough to consume them; the petrol would have been used up and the fire extinguished before more than superficial damage to the bodies had been inflicted. The faces might have been burned sufficiently to render them unrecognisable, but that would have been about all.

Hitler's body WAS indeed found with superficial charring overall, though more to one side of the body and his lower limbs; IIRC according to the SMERSH autopsy report, one leg and part of the ribcage came away when the body was lifted, but the rest was relatively intact...hence them being able to remove his jawbone and accompanying dental plate during the autopsy.

[waldzee]

the only advantage of gasoline is to start a 'sustained source' on fire.
Unfortunately, the vast projects in synthetic fuel, given 1940's technology, produced vast amonts of tar- which the SS used in cremation pryes .
If the bodies were burnt , standard practise would be to tar coat them, then layer them in wood.

Yes, that "standard practice" was used in the cremation of the exhumed bodies of the Jewish victims.

But the witness statements in regard to the burning of the bodies of Mr and Mrs Hitler do not state that they were placed on pyre and subjected to sustained burning.

They all say that petrol was poured over them and ignited. That would not be nearly enough to consume them; the petrol would have been used up and the fire extinguished before more than superficial damage to the bodies had been inflicted. The faces might have been burned sufficiently to render them unrecognisable, but that would have been about all.

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True...
My assumption was that a few of the available staff would have some cremation of bodies experience- & didn't want to own up to the grisly details. Heck you & I could probably dispose of our victims more thoroughly,Michael,& we are not experienced mass murderers... 200 litres of Gasoline would have some black market value, while I assume tar & H2SO4 would be a glut on the market... a few hours in the acid drum & all you have is spill liquid & some really clean teeth

'The last I saw of the Fueher & Eva was when I dunked them in the 45 Gallon drums of fuming sulphuric acid'- could have consequences...
Anyhooow, Martin Bormann, Bergoff, et al claiming that 'we tried gasoline because we just didn't know WHAT to do with a body..you get the picture

[waldzee]

Vikki, are we pushing the envelope here?
If so, just let me know & I'll tell Michael to simmer down...

[Schnitzel]

Is there any reason to believe that the burning of Hitler and Braun, differ in any way from that of the Goebbels?
In both cases the bodies were doused with petrol and burned. Images on the Web show that Joseph Goebbels is still almost recognizable after the burning.

Might the same be true for Hitler?

I have to believe that even in death, Hitler struck fear into those around him and it was with much trepidation that those who poured the petrol on him and lit the fire were awestruck with the task. After all...it was the Fuehrer.

[michael mills]

Hitler's body WAS indeed found with superficial charring overall, though more to one side of the body and his lower limbs; IIRC according to the SMERSH autopsy report, one leg and part of the ribcage came away when the body was lifted, but the rest was relatively intact...hence them being able to remove his jawbone and accompanying dental plate during the autopsy.

Phylo,

Is that detailed information available somewhere?

[phylo_roadking]

Michael, the particular detail on the detaching leg/foot and part of the ribcage is from D. Marchetti et al, "The death of Adolf Hitler – forensic aspects", Journal of Forensic Sciences, September 2005; p. 1148. The detail on the removal of the jawbone etc. is from there, and also from IIRC V.K. Vinogradov's "Hitler's Death", which has extracts form the SMERSH autopsy as well as a good part of the interrogation reports of witnesses etc. (tho' not all), all taken from the original file prepared for Stalin.

[waldzee]

Is there any reason to believe that the burning of Hitler and Braun, differ in any way from that of the Goebbels?
In both cases the bodies were doused with petrol and burned. Images on the Web show that Joseph Goebbels is still almost recognizable after the burning.

Might the same be true for Hitler?

I have to believe that even in death, Hitler struck fear into those around him and it was with much trepidation that those who poured the petrol on him and lit the fire were awestruck with the task. After all...it was the Fuehrer.

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I still opt for murder . The hasty attempts at 'disposal' of the bodies indicate a hasty final 'agreement ' to dump & scatter.
"Hey look- 200 litres of gasoline- You thinkin' what I'm thinkin?"

[wm]

Is there any reason to believe that the burning of Hitler and Braun, differ in any way from that of the Goebbels?
In both cases the bodies were doused with petrol and burned. Images on the Web show that Joseph Goebbels is still almost recognizable after the burning.

According to Kershaw almost 200 liters of petrol was used to cremate Hitler & Braun but much less on Goebbels and his wife because there was little left by then.
200 liters would release so much energy that skin and fat would probably ignite, a then fat would burn as fuel and clothes as wick sustaining the cremation for a long time.

I still opt for murder.

perhaps the butler did it?

[phylo_roadking]

According to Kershaw almost 200 liters of petrol was used to cremate Hitler & Braun but much less on Goebbels and his wife because there was little left by then.
200 liters would release so much energy that skin and fat would probably ignite, a then fat would burn as fuel and clothes as wick sustaining the cremation for a long time.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that very often First of all, not only was Hitler's body fully dressed - see all the witnesses' statements regarding recognising dress trousers or jacket - but it was also wrapped in a blanket before being carried out of the Bunker and laid in the crater that way; x-amount of accelerant would have been consumed burning that all away.

Next, a body combusting as you describe - in effect melting enough to release fats - needs to be able to draw air into the pyre...a bit like a mini-firestorm?...and thus needs to be rested ON something to burn and to allow the fire to draw air in beneath and up into the flames. Just plonking a body - or two! even more to burn with the available fuel - in the bottom of a depresssion in the ground, pouring in the petrol, and lighting it, is one of the worst possible ways to get rid of a body!

As for the petrol itself - x-amount will flash off immediately; x-amount will also soak into the ground before it can be lit. Petrol is also a relatively "cool" flame; there are better, hotter-burning accelerants to use if you want a body to render down far enough so that body fats burn.

Plus - when you get right down to the nitty-gritty - if a body was burned featureless, as of 1945 ONLY Hitler's dentalwork was needed to identify him. There was nothing more advanced available than identification by dental records, and teeth and bone were not going to be destroyed by a relatively short-duration petrol fire.

[wm]

Next, a body combusting as you describe - in effect melting enough to release fats - needs to be able to draw air into the pyre...a bit like a mini-firestorm?...and thus needs to be rested ON something to burn and to allow the fire to draw air in beneath and up into the flames. Just plonking a body - or two! even more to burn with the available fuel - in the bottom of a depresssion in the ground, pouring in the petrol, and lighting it, is one of the worst possible ways to get rid of a body!

but Dr John de Haan and his self-immolation pig disagree with these objections:

Dr John de Haan of the California Criminalistic Institute used a dead pig in a gruesome experiment to show that small flames can consume a human being with the help of burning body fat.
A pig was used because it closely resembles a human's fat content.
The pig was wrapped in a blanket and a small amount of petrol was poured on it.
After five hours of continuous burning the bones were being destroyed.