Did Hitler survive?

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waldzee
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Re: Hitlers escape

#976

Post by waldzee » 10 Mar 2012, 01:41

wm wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:Next, a body combusting as you describe - in effect melting enough to release fats - needs to be able to draw air into the pyre...a bit like a mini-firestorm?...and thus needs to be rested ON something to burn and to allow the fire to draw air in beneath and up into the flames. Just plonking a body - or two! even more to burn with the available fuel 8O - in the bottom of a depresssion in the ground, pouring in the petrol, and lighting it, is one of the worst possible ways to get rid of a body!
but Dr John de Haan and his self-immolation pig disagree with these objections:

Dr John de Haan of the California Criminalistic Institute used a dead pig in a gruesome experiment to show that small flames can consume a human being with the help of burning body fat.
A pig was used because it closely resembles a human's fat content.
The pig was wrapped in a blanket and a small amount of petrol was poured on it.
After five hours of continuous burning the bones were being destroyed.
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The gasoline would have to be soaked into wood, etc, to support the articles 'wicking effect'. for example, a kerosene lantern does not 'explode' because the kerosene is directed into the flame. There was enough destruction wood around to build a pyre.
As to 'who dun it"- my prime suspect is Friedrich Schmeed...
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1971/0 ... _000298347
Last edited by waldzee on 10 Mar 2012, 02:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hitlers escape

#977

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2012, 01:47

After five hours of continuous burning the bones were being destroyed.
But we do know from the various witness statements that the Hitler pyre did not burn for anything like that long. IIRC it was also supposed to have been very windy.

Note also
"Even in human crematoria where temperatures are 700-1000 centigrade, the bones are not destroyed."
I actually saw the programme in question, and quite freaky it was too; but what that article DOESN'T say....tho' hints at from the pics :wink: is that initial combustion depended on the presence of highly combustible, oldstyle non-flame retardent upholstery and bedding...the "human combustion" case histories cited were drunks and OAPS sitting in old furniture etc.....which helped the burning pig and putative examples of so-called "human combustion" reach that magical point of body fat rendering down.
There was enough destruction wood around to build a pyre.
No. When the Soviets aloowed the foreign press and military representatives to view the crater in July there was...but none of the eyewitness statements record wood being used.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...


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waldzee
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Re: Hitlers escape

#978

Post by waldzee » 10 Mar 2012, 04:19

Note also
"Even in human crematoria where temperatures are 700-1000 centigrade, the bones are not destroyed."
I actually saw the programme in question, and quite freaky it was too; but what that article DOESN'T say....tho' hints at from the pics :wink: is that initial combustion depended on the presence of highly combustible, oldstyle non-flame retardent upholstery and bedding...the "human combustion" case histories cited were drunks and OAPS sitting in old furniture etc.....which helped the burning pig and putative examples of so-called "human combustion" reach that magical point of body fat rendering down.
There was enough destruction wood around to build a pyre.
No. When the Soviets aloowed the foreign press and military representatives to view the crater in July there was...but none of the eyewitness statements record wood being used.[/quote]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Furnishings, etc, PRK- oak cabinets make lovely funeral pryes!
http://life.time.com/history/rare-and-u ... Cmostpop#6

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Re: Hitlers escape

#979

Post by Vikki » 10 Mar 2012, 10:37

waldzee wrote:Vikki, are we pushing the envelope here?
If so, just let me know & I'll tell Michael to simmer down... :)
Herr Mills is doing fine here. As are most of the other posters. Surprisingly, knowing this topic's history. So far.

However, on a personal note, comments like this:
waldzee wrote:'The last I saw of the Fueher & Eva was when I dunked them in the 45 Gallon drums of fuming sulphuric acid'- could have consequences...
Anyhooow, Martin Bormann, Bergoff, et al claiming that 'we tried gasoline because we just didn't know WHAT to do with a body..you :o get the picture
aren't necessary. Everything in the Third Reich, from eastern women's and children's exploitation to the death of Hitler and Eva Braun, doesn't need a joke attached to it. Your tone in the jokes puts my back up, as I'm sure it does other readers'.

~Vikki

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Re: Hitlers escape

#980

Post by waldzee » 10 Mar 2012, 11:00

Vikki wrote:
waldzee wrote:Vikki, are we pushing the envelope here?
If so, just let me know & I'll tell Michael to simmer down... :)
Herr Mills is doing fine here. As are most of the other posters. Surprisingly, knowing this topic's history. So far.

However, on a personal note, comments like this:
waldzee wrote:'The last I saw of the Fueher & Eva was when I dunked them in the 45 Gallon drums of fuming sulphuric acid'- could have consequences...
Anyhooow, Martin Bormann, Bergoff, et al claiming that 'we tried gasoline because we just didn't know WHAT to do with a body..you :o get the picture
aren't necessary. Everything in the Third Reich, from eastern women's and children's exploitation to the death of Hitler and Eva Braun, doesn't need a joke attached to it. Your tone in the jokes puts my back up, as I'm sure it does other readers'.

~Vikki
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Understood,I'll tone it down.
I sold Bulk H2SO4 twenty years ago. Bodies dissolved in 'oleum' undergo calcium replacement in the undissolved structures- 'sugaring. ' Sugared bones turn to dust on cremation.
The SA used this method, esp. after the public outcry when Rosa Luxembourg's tortured, dismembered corpse was recovered. Martin Bormann would have been rather familiar with the practise..
Bormann was regarded as a low class thug, by other Nazis, but he had some 'hands on knowledge'.
Onthe Eastern posts- I was reacting to a comparison of Ukraine under the Koch regime made by a poster

to 1940-s Rural Ireland r - but I should have ignored him. I was pointing out the women & childrens plight- not laughing at it.. Trusting this explains...
thx
Reg
Last edited by waldzee on 11 Mar 2012, 02:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hitlers escape

#981

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2012, 19:46

Furnishings, etc, PRK- oak cabinets make lovely funeral pryes!
But, as those pics note....they were still inside the Bunker as of July ;) Even Hitler's sofa where he shot himself was still there, though the SMERSH team had taken small fragments of the bloodstained upholstery away (these too were swabbed by Nick Bellantoni in 2009, but the DNA had degraded too far, it was only possible to confirm it was a man's blood). And once again, there's no record in any of the witness interrogations of anything else beging brought out of the Bunker except the petrol, the bodies and the blankets they were wrapped up in.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Hitlers escape

#982

Post by Kilgore Trout » 10 Mar 2012, 22:08

Actually, the escape story is not as unreasonable as many of the above authors seem to think. Amid the blizzard of comments, the originating questions have been forgotten. Let me reiterate:
QUESTIONS
1. Was it POSSIBLE that Hitler could have escaped by U-boat from someplace in Spain or Italy and landed in South America? Specific departure and arrival points were never given.

2. How long would such a journey take?

3. What would be the best type of 'boat for such a journey?

4. Would the 'boat need to re-supply during the journey?

MY ANSWERS
However unlikely, and dispensing with all other factors (assumptions about Hitler's health, etc.)
1. It was certainly possible for Hitler to escape. However, sailing from Spain or northern Italy would require first getting to either of those places. It would have been MUCH easier - even on 30 April 1945, to fly from Berlin to Wilhelmshaven. This is just a few hundred kilometres/miles, a flight of only 2-3 hours even in a very slow aircraft. Wilhelmshaven was the primary U-boat base. It is known that U-boats sailed from there on 30 April 1945, and perhaps later.

2. The duration of a journey depends on the distance travelled and the average speed of the vehicle. For this answer, I assume Wilhelmshaven as the departure point and Buenos Aires, Argentina as the arrival point.
(a) Assume a departure date of 30 April 1945.
(b) I calculate this distance as 6,538 Nautical miles (7,529 Imperial miles/12, 117 Kilometres.)
(c) Assume a very conservative speed of 6 "knots" (6.9 Imp. miles or 11.1 Km.) per hour.
Therefore, duration is 6538 divided by 6 = 1089.66 hours, or 45 days, 9 hrs, 40 min.
We can reasonably consider this the maximum time the journey would take. This would give a landing date of about 15 June 1945. The right 'boat (see below) could have made the journey in as little as 18-19 days, giving an arrival in mid-May 1945.

3. The best 'boat for the journey was clearly the Type XXI, the most advanced submarine at the time. In fact, it was the first TRUE submarine that could actually match the qualities of the submarine "Nautilus" in Jules Verne's books. All previous submarines were really only submersible. They spent almost all of their time on the surface, and moved very slowly when submerged.
The Type XXI was designed to sail faster when submerged than it could while surfaced. It could actually out-run most pursuit ships while submerged. It could sail 285 nautical miles at 6 "knots" at a time while submerged, and needed only 3-5 hours on the surface to re-charge its batteries. This could be done at night. It could remain submerged for 11 days at a time. It had a surface cruising range of 11,150 miles at 12 "knots." It could easily reach Buenos Aires from Wilhelmshaven.

4. It would NOT need to re-supply during the journey. For such an important cargo, it could be stripped of torpedoes and much of its crew to either allow more speed or to load more supplies to make an even longer journey.

Absent unequivocal proof of Hitler's demise (no proven body or substantial part thereof has ever been produced), myriad viewpoints will be espoused. The S.U. told many tales across most of its existence about the fate of the Romanovs, and the revealed truth differed considerably from these tales. It told many tales about Hitler, and these have been systematically proven either categorically false or subject to doubt. If Russia has proof, NOW is the time for it to be forthcoming. In like fashion, the U.S. still sits on "classified" files about Lincoln's assassination 147 years ago. It chose to present an unprovable story about bin Laden, even though it allegedly had proof. Then why not show it? Governments resort to elaborate lies very often. It is always wise to question authority, especially when it tells a story that co-incides with what IT wants to hear. If proof of a claim exists, show it or beg the question "Who benefits from this ambiguity?"

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Re: Hitlers escape

#983

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2012, 22:20

Absent unequivocal proof of Hitler's demise (no proven body or substantial part thereof has ever been produced), myriad viewpoints will be espoused. The S.U. told many tales across most of its existence about the fate of the Romanovs, and the revealed truth differed considerably from these tales. It told many tales about Hitler, and these have been systematically proven either categorically false or subject to doubt. If Russia has proof, NOW is the time for it to be forthcoming.
Your knowledge seems to be quite some years out of date; a considerable amount of the Soviet material from the Hitler file HAS already been made available in V.K. Vinogradov's "Hitler's Death"; the Russians have already allowed a forensic scientist to analyse the dental remains in 2003, and to DNA swab the skull fragment and bloodstained upholstery fragements in 2009...and the FSB last year declared that their archive would be 100% open to research on this topic after the publication of the excreble "Grey Wolf" got right up their noses. Get on a plane... :wink:
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Hitlers escape

#984

Post by Kilgore Trout » 10 Mar 2012, 22:30

The teeth are the sort of "evidence" that can easily be planted by anyone. Likewise for blood stains. The skull fragment has been discredited. D.N.A. proved it belonged to a woman of 25-40 years old. It was not possible to test whether the fragment may have been from Eva Braun but, absent ANY evidence that she was shot either before or after her death, even it remains subject to doubt. The S.U./Russia ALWAYS had/has an excuse on why it can't produce its alleged "jaw" fragment. It seems, Phylo, that you are more willing to accept balderdash than I. As I wrote: If the proof exists, show it, NOW, no excuses, and end the speculation forever.

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Re: Hitlers escape

#985

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Mar 2012, 22:52

The teeth are the sort of "evidence" that can easily be planted by anyone.
That is not the case - and is why identification by dental records was a staple of law throughout the 20th century until supplanted by DNA analysis if required. How exactly do the teeth...ALL of them (remaining!) of one person get found in another person's mouth, and in exactly the same locations/angles/settings/sockets? They weren't exactly found in a loose pile in the corpse's mouth - although his jaw was broken in three places, Hitler's remaining teeth were still firmly rooted in their respective sockets in the jawbone, and the bridge clipped in place (It was held in place by wires clipping it to the nearest available teeth :P), when it was removed from the corpse and stripped. The autopsy records are quite clear on this - that the jawbone and bridge used in 1945 and again in 2003 to identify Hitler were parted from the recovered corpse only during the autopsy. In other words - there is a clear evidential trail from the body in the crater to the autopsy table to Kaethe Heusemann's identification in May 1945 to Mark Benecke's identification in 2003.

What's more - as previously mentioned - it wasn't only Hitler's teeth and bridgework that identified him - but in 2003 the actual jawbone itself, due to the cut made in 1944 by Hugo Blaschke to excise infection. And Kaethe Heusemann's interrogation report in "Hitler's Death" makes it clear that the 1944 infection excision was one of the identifying featues she used to identify Hitler's jawbone...the same drilling that is evident on the 1944 full cranial x-rays Mark Benecke used in 2003. The SMERSH investigation team went to her because Hitler's dental x-rays taken by Blaschke were missing; but now that we have the others, it's clear that her identification by certain features in 1945 was correct...today they can be seen on the Hitler cranial x-rays.

The reason for any ambiguity is quite simply that noone yet has gathered ALL of this into one plce. Why??? Conspiracy theories sell books.... :roll: For instance - we've just recently seen at least one respected historical author and his co-author totally ignore the existence of Mark Benecke and his work for the sake of creating enough "wiggle room" to sell their theory... :P Although the The Sun newspaper did a great job last sunday of shooting them down again! :lol:
The S.U./Russia ALWAYS had/has an excuse on why it can't produce its alleged "jaw" fragment.
Really? Let's see a statement/press release/news report saying that. We know it was available and identified in 1945; if you obtain a copy of "Hitler's Death" you'll see SMERSH photographs of them as shown to Kaethe Heusemann.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Hitlers escape

#986

Post by waldzee » 11 Mar 2012, 03:32

Kilgore Trout wrote:The teeth are the sort of "evidence" that can easily be planted by anyone. Likewise for blood stains. The skull fragment has been discredited. D.N.A. proved it belonged to a woman of 25-40 years old. It was not possible to test whether the fragment may have been from Eva Braun but, absent ANY evidence that she was shot either before or after her death, even it remains subject to doubt. The S.U./Russia ALWAYS had/has an excuse on why it can't produce its alleged "jaw" fragment. It seems, Phylo, that you are more willing to accept balderdash than I. As I wrote: If the proof exists, show it, NOW, no excuses, and end the speculation forever.
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Hmmm- was there any proof that EVa died inthe bunker, other than some 'interesting' witnesses'?

Frankly- why would she want to die? She could trade info for a pretty good life- & she hadn't done anything!
At this point I'll sign off & let Trevor Roper Hull
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/st ... hitler.htm
take over.

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Re: Hitlers escape

#987

Post by waldzee » 11 Mar 2012, 03:48

wm wrote:
Schnitzel wrote:Is there any reason to believe that the burning of Hitler and Braun, differ in any way from that of the Goebbels?
In both cases the bodies were doused with petrol and burned. Images on the Web show that Joseph Goebbels is still almost recognizable after the burning.
According to Kershaw almost 200 liters of petrol was used to cremate Hitler & Braun but much less on Goebbels and his wife because there was little left by then.
200 liters would release so much energy that skin and fat would probably ignite, a then fat would burn as fuel and clothes as wick sustaining the cremation for a long time.
waldzee wrote: I still opt for murder.
perhaps the butler did it?
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I've been dropping clues- & you are close. Which two honorable gentlemen were present who could switch an unconscious Eva?
There were lots of fresh war corpses to choose from..
( not the butler- & not Schmeed..)
As an anology, read Gunther Glass's "Dog Years", where Prinz tells us why Eva ran...
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Re: Hitlers escape

#988

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Mar 2012, 04:01

Hmmm- was there any proof that EVa died inthe bunker, other than some 'interesting' witnesses'?
Kaethe Heusemann was ALSO shown Eva Braun's teeth and bridgework, and confirmed that they were hers. It's identity was also confirmed by Fritz Echtmann on May 11th 1945, who made the bridgework. Apparently, Braun was a very demanding patient quality-wise...as opposed to Hitler who had put off some ongoing amendments to his bridgework in 1945 because he simply didn't have time to have it done; as a result, Eva Braun's 1944 lower jaw bridgework was even more distinctive and identifiable by Echtmann, as he had created a unique type of bridge for her for that location that he only made for one patient once - her.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Hitlers escape

#989

Post by waldzee » 11 Mar 2012, 04:12

Ok- so they confirm Adolf & they see a similar jaw , close in age, close in stature. They tell the Soviets- yep- hers...
There were lots of bodies to choose from....Is the Soviet Union under Stalin going to say " shucks, they switched the girl on us?"
Trevor Hull felt she was worth some value to British IT.
Why would she WANT to die?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/st ... hitler.htm
By the time the investigation took place the switched dental records for Eva could be well in place...
Again , dear readers, I refer you back to that most strange 'cremation'....
Last edited by waldzee on 11 Mar 2012, 04:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hitlers escape

#990

Post by Kilgore Trout » 11 Mar 2012, 04:17

I note AGAIN that this whole debate drifts FAR away from the originating question.
Then, I reiterate: If the Russian government actually possesses the material that it claims, THEN WHY NOT SHOW IT NOW? Then the issue can be settled forever. Failing to do this causes any logical person to question the motives of that government. The 67-year-old findings of a citizen of a just-conquered nation, working under duress to tell the ruthless Soviet secret police what it wanted to hear, are clearly subject to doubt. Any and all evidence should be freely made available to be subjected to the most rigorous tests known to contemporary science - not restricted to a one-hour time limit.
Personally, I accept that Hitler probably met his end in the generally presented way. I don't care if he shot himself or not, or if he had one testicle or three. But I also firmly believe that it is the duty of all governments and every person to freely present the truth of history so civilisation can learn and grow. To not do so is a patronising and puerile ploy to cling to the minutest vestige of meaningless power to the ultimate breath.
That said, "Stud Baker" asked some legitimate questions, which I answered. Hitler's escape WAS possible. That is all.
Re: Eva Braun. I accept that she also probably met her end in the generally presented way. I don't stridently espouse "conspiracy theories." I'm simply tired of the persistent bovine scatology the common people are subjected to by a handful of government officials to suit their perverse ends.

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